Saturday, August 13, 2011

Is Jon Snow Dead?

WARNING: Spoiler for Dance With Dragons by G.R.R. Martin

I've seen a lot of speculation on the net over the past few weeks about the "death" of Jon Snow. At the end of DWD, he is stabbed 4 times by the men of the Night's Watch, and does not feel the 4th dagger: only the cold.

Here are some quotes of various people putting forth the idea that he is either truly dead or not on Yahoo answers, with my comments below them:

"He was stabbed 4 freaking times, yes he's dead. If he's in the next book, it'll be as a wolf. A fricking wolf.
Stupid Martin already killed off everyone good and then only gives 3 chapters of Arya and Bran, kills Jon Snow, and possibly Stannis, but leaves his beloved annoying, stupid, girly little $@*&! called "Dan", dedicating over 80% of the bloody book to the sl*t, retard Turncloak, and other annoying, dumb characters.
Now we wait another 6 years for what? More of the ugly Dragon C**t. Screw you Martin. Screw you."
- Muhandis

Now, obviously this guy is no expert on literature. He would probably be better off with a Robert Jordan or Dragonlance book where all his super cool "badass" heroes will survive and he can still feel good about playing with the action figures.

But I've seen this same opinion in alot of places. People seem to think that being stabbed 4 times is automatic death- not surprising when we're dealing with modern bookworms who have prolly never been in a fight, much less a knife fight.

I have a friend who was stabbed 5 times about 18 years ago. I had dinner with him tonight.

I have another friend who was stabbed 15 times and never even went to the hospital.

Sure, one well placed knife stab can kill. But Jon wasn't stabbed in the heart, and I have read news reports of people being stabbed over 20 times and still surviving.

So the number of stab wounds is no indication whatever.

Also, I would just like to make a small caveat about this poster. The guy's favorites are Bran, Arya, Jon, and Stannis. The three goodie-goodie 2-shoes guys and the little girl. He doesn't like Theon, one of my favorite characters and prolly the main character of the most interesting chapters in the book. He calls Dany a slut, which also tells me this guy is a prude- she's had sex with three whopping people, and two of them in wedlock.

Better yet, this guy should probably be reading G-rated comic books.

Furthermore, when every oe said Theon was dead on the discussion boards, I knew he wasn't and said so. I'd bet good money that I'm right once again.

"Of course Jon Snow is dead. This is all part of George Martin's nihilistic vision: death triumphs over life, chaos over harmony, ugliness over beauty, evil over goodness, betrayal over honor, slavery over freedom, winter over summer. We want our favorite characters to live and thrive and to conquer the dark forces that seek to destroy them. But they cannot prevail in Martin's universe. All our hopes will be dashed. Is this not what has happened in every book of this series? Is this not what Martin is teaching us? Yes, we have our minor victories, but our defeat is assured."
-Strider

Now this is a much better argument, but not convincing enough for me. I am not sure that this is what Martin is teaching us. Sure he's teaching us that nothing is sacred, but that our expectations are likely to be crushed in a gritty "real world" type of imaginary universe. But I just don't think he can resolve this book with Westeros completely failing and the Others taking over. It just wouldn't be a good ending, post-modernism and dark fantasy or not. Surely Martin isn't going to ruin his chance to be remembered as one of the two greatest fantasy authors of all time by rendering the whole series a pointless waste of time with his ending.
I just don't buy it.

As for evidence that Jon is alive, aside from the prophesies that hint that he may be Azor Ahai and therefore the main character of the story, the foremost puzzle piece comes from Martin himself:

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: So why did you kill Jon Snow?
GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Oh, you think he’s dead, do you?

But, to me, the smoking gun is the GIANT. Why is he conveniently there with a human club in his hand right when Jon is being stabbed? What's the purpose of having the "murder" take place right in front of the unexplained giant rampage?

Well, folks....if Jon were being stabbed and the giant came out of nowhere to beat his attackers off, that would be a "ghost in the machine" and subject to serious literary criticism. Martin would not do something so amateurish.

The giant is killing the knife because the mutineers wanted Jon, his wolf, his wildlings, and his giant dead. Their main grievance is that Jon doesn't hate the wildlings, and goes against their ancient prejudices by being civil with them.

The giant is there to beat off all Jon's attackers before the 5th dagger can fall with one single blow of his knight-club.

And Melisandre doesn't have to resurrect Jon ala beric Dondarrion...he was only stabbed 4 times, not in the heart, and he's of Stark blood. Although she most likely will play a part in his speedy recovery.









184 comments:

Thorstein said...

I don't find the "ghost in the machine" amateurish. But I think the Giant will rage, thus drawing the ire and attention of his aforementioned brethren.

The wildlings will protect Jon. He understands the vow he took but he did forsake it by wishing to march on Winterfell. He beheaded Janos Slynt for desertion, and Jon is now wishing to leave the Night's Watch.

I believe this second battle of the wall will leave quite a few black brothers dead. I think Jon survives, for now. It wouldn't surprise me if he dies later. I just don't see this as the way it goes. And we will see Jon come back in a a Missandei chapter, or whatever the Red Priestess is called.

Also, if Stanis is dead, then why doesn't Bolton have Theon or Jeyne?

J. Lyon Layden said...

Someone else pointed that out about Stannis, but it was actually clear in the e-book version I read: The Karstarks were waiting right outside of Winterfell for Stannis, and they are the ones who picked up Theon and Jeyne out of the moat. They never met up with Stannis before meeting up with Asha.

Mart. said...

I have reasons to beleive that Jon is in fact the son of Lianna Stark and King Rhaegar, making him, by fact a Targayen by name has well has a Stark, you cant kill such a character in this fashion, it would be a total waste of time.

Just imagine the potential of such a character, who's a skinchanger and has natural affinity with dragons...nah, I dont buy his death, and I do not buy Stannis's death either, where would be Theon and Jeyne if not with Stannis's host?!

George is playing with our nerves, cause we all know the possibility is there, and we know it for a fact all because of the red wedding...but people will also recall, that the author actually killed de facto Robb in this chapter, he did'nt leave it to interpretation...so there it is, my own two cent on the matter...

And if he is trully dead...well, I might end up ranting like a mad dog.

Anonymous said...

I am so pissed.. I just finished the book and I can not believe that Snow is "dead". Yeah that's right he's dead. This was a horrible ending. Martin had a chance @ greatness n ruined it. Omg, he kept on righting about that Dany chick. Her story was sooooo boring. N Thron sucked also.uck

Anonymous said...

i hate martin for writing this novel but i cant stop reading it. that is how good he is. yes it drives one mad when he casually kills central characters but that is reality (in a fictional universe?) just like the movie syriana, i hated the ending and would never watch it again but it was a bloody good movie. the series was never really about good or evil although there is a lot of promise that it is about that,no it is about a time and a place, about people living their lives and leaving their mark on history and reaching for their ambition. just like we are. and tyrion is also my favorite other than ned. nothing can kill the dwarf! hahaha!

andreasgarrett said...

Oh I hope you're right about Jon Snow! He's a great character. However, I have to agree with the, maybe passionate would be a good term, rant about Dany. One of the things that is enjoyable about GRRM, and few other writers, is that he doesn't have a "crush" on his characters-except for Dany. He's got a terrible, old guy, Ser Barristan crush on her, and the object of the crush is totally annoying. When he writes about Dany you can tell he thinks she's just great rather than a purple eyed, dragon riding My Little Pony. His writing turns saccharin; you can just feel the old guy love. And lord that girl is grating-except as a drinking game "take one shot every time Dany says 'I'm just a young girl'" Oh how I wanted to bring Viserys back to pimp slap her.
My take on the giant, who had obviously been attacked, being there was that it was a strike by malcontents at the Nightwatch on all the Wildlings,with an aim to kill Jon. I suspect Missandei of coordinating it because Jon Snow wouldn't do what she wanted him to do-abandon the rest of the Wildlings for one. She'd tried the promise of his "sister," she'd tried the veiled threat, when that didn't work she decided he had to go. I also think the ruler she sees in the flames is probably the suddenly alive Targaren kid.

I only hope Mr. Martin lives and writes long enough to give us the real version of what happens. I'm all agog!
Regards,
Andrea Garrett

andreasgarrett said...

Oh, and I forgot to mention-the WonWon rampage wasn't unexplained Jon Snow said, when he was trying to calm everyone down, can't you see the ax wounds. Or words to that effect.The giant had been attacked-we presume by the Queen's man Patrick(sp)that he was now using as a club-thus the rampage. But I still really really hope you're right and Jon will return. AND my brother-in-law was shot 6 times and he made it and wasn't even ever at death's door either.

Boromir said...

Don't forget Melisandre - Red babes can bring dudes back to life (or heal very bad assed injuries), and she is fond of Jon.

Lady Lars said...

Thank you for writing this. It's shocking to me that so many people have read FIVE of Martin's books and are still oblivious to how his world works. The moment Jon left his quarters without Ghost, it was clear that the daggers in the dark were coming. Mutiny was inevitable.

We haven't seen Melisandre resurrect anyone yet. It seems that the red priests have distinct powers unique to the individual. Moquorro's powers of resurrection seem to leave the reborn with jet black skin, while Thoros's reborn still bear the wounds that slew them. I'm looking forward to learning more about Melisandre's powers, which I think we will now that Jon is aware her visions are prophetic.

Anonymous said...

It was Mors Umber who found Theon and Jeyne Poole, not a Karstark. The Karstarks were in the long hall in the camp of Stannis' host, when the Braavosi banker came with Theon (and Jeyne), looking for Stannis.

Ramsay's note lied. The question is why he sent it at all, it doesn't really make much sense, other than as a weak reprisal for having sent "Arya's" rescuers (Mance and his female companions).

Anonymous said...

I totally agree with this entry. It would just make no sense whatsoever to kill him off, he is the POV character at the Wall, and the Wall will be probs the most important place to be in the Seven Kingdoms (The Others are coming, remember?). I agree with you on Theon, he IS one of the more interesting characters. And Stannis is probably not dead, either, but looks like we'll have to wait another 6 years to know for sure...

Anonymous said...

No J. Lyon, you are totally wrong about that. Mors Umber is the guy waiting outside the walls for Stannis. The Karstarks are already marching with Stannis' party when Theon comes to them. I'm not sure what being an e-book has to do with anything but I just reread the end of that chapter to be sure.

stridernj said...

I have to comment. The Karstarks did not pick up Theon and Jeyne, it was Crowfood Umber outside the walls of Winterfell who was playing mind games with Bolton (good job of it too). As for Jon? Be ashame to kill him off. Like some people have said in this blog I too am tired of Dani, and the Stark daughters. While reading the last book I began to think about skipping chapters when it came to them, never a good sign. If Jon is kept in the story and for the sake of the series I hope he is then I would agree to what others have said, the giant will help him, the red pristess will help. As for the letter from Ramsey I believe it a FAKE. Why would Ramsey send it? His father Lord Bolton would of sent it. The letter was desinged by someone wanting to get rid of Jon and it worked to provoke him. It was sealed with 'smeared pink wax' not a presice seal. Ramsey demands Jayne and Reek back. If Ramsey had destroyed Stannis then he would have Jayne and Reek.
Just my thoughts.

Oh, another thing. The dead men in the ice cells most likely will not become 'whites'. The wall is warded, if they were outside the wall in a shed like earlier then they would become 'whites' like before........

Anonymous said...

I suggest you to change the title of this post ("Is Jon Snow Dead?"), because it's a big BIG spoiler. Could it be a bit more vague?

Right now, there's no need to write "WARNING: Spoiler for Dance With Dragons by G.R.R. Martin". We already know the fate of Jon.

thank you

Anonymous said...

It's very simple, if you look at the previous events.

If the POV character sees another person die, they are dead. If the POV charcter himeself is dying, they are not dead.

This happens multiple times in the books.

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carter said...

If Stannis is dead what is the importance for having the Iron Bank to meet with him? The letter sounded like a taunt to me. Stannis, as Ramsey knows, has been trapped in a snow storm for over 30 days(i think) and he could just assume Stannis is dead and that nobody could survive the storm. I don't think Martin would give us the hope of seeing Winterfel rid of the Bolton's through the Iron Bank just to say "JK GUYS STANNIS IS DEAD!" I don't think any of it is true except he has Mance Rayder and wants what was on his list of demands. He titled the letter "Bastard" to enrage Jon. We know the anger the word creates in those natural born people as Martin has shown us, and who hate the word more than the sender Ramsey? The idea of Jon being Azor Ashai seems far fetched. I don't know if him being alive or dead is too important at this point because the real issue is that the wildlings out number the Night's Watch who by stabbing him and attacking the giant Wun Wun have sincerely pissed off the wildlings/free folk. I think the next chapter at the wall will be Tormund and will involve a lot of bloodshed and maybe the end to the Night's Watch as we have known it.

But then to respond to the title of this, Is Jon Snow Dead? I would have to say it is doubtful. The post about POV seems more valid for when it is the chapter but then if that is true it means Ser Kevan is still alive who in the epilogue is killed by Varys and his birds. A bolt to the chest and a lot of daggers. Now Catelyn died a solid death as well and Brienne may have been hung but I don't see any Red priest to resurrect Ser Kevan only Quyburn. So there the complete validity of the chapter POV may be flawed as well.

Bran fell/was pushed from a height that should have killed him, crippled him, but he still lives. But there is also no Maester at the wall who is considered great or remarkable. Only a drunk and the Red Priestess are at the wall. The Red Priestess warned Jon about the danger, it may be that she saw danger but not death in her fires but still that does not return to the true question of is Jon Snow dead?

johnny said...

Well its up in the air I believe. But I was sure theon was dead but he wasn't, plus he never did change into ghost. I believe he's alive but who knows with the way martin lovem to kill off main characters. As for the guy that calls dany a slut can kiss my a** she's one of the most interesting character next to bran.

Anonymous said...

So by that logic, Kevan Lannister is...?

Yollo said...

I also don't think Jon Snow is dead. So far the Melisandre prophecies have come true and there is much in them for Jon Snow. He is one of the central characters of the series and to loose him would cost the series much. Ned Stark died in the beginning, we are now in the middle I hope and apart from him and Daenerys whom George Martins tried to portray them as good caring leaders in the making there is not anyone else. Unless he means to Frog to take his place which would be awful.

silverstairs said...

It wasn't the Karstarks outside Winterfell, it was Mors Umber (pg. 826 ADWD)

But that is besides the point. I think that the red priest, Moqorro's "healing" of Victarion's mortifying arm points to Jon's possible future. I mean when Melisandre looks into the fire to see Azor Ahai (who she thinks is Stannis) she sees only... Snow!

silverstairs said...

It wasn't the Karstarks outside Winterfell, it was Mors Umber (pg. 826 ADWD)

But that is besides the point. I think that the red priest, Moqorro's "healing" of Victarion's mortifying arm points to Jon's possible future. I mean when Melisandre looks into the fire to see Azor Ahai (who she thinks is Stannis) she sees only... Snow!

Razor Catch Prey said...

When he didn't feel the fourth dagger and felt only "the cold," I think that cold was Ghost racing through the snow to come to his rescue. Jon is being forced into Ghost temporarily, will rescue himself, then revert.

Knowing Martin, he could be dead or could stay a wolf forever, but I don't think he's going to go that route.

The first commenter you quoted is obviously uncouth and posted while in a rage, but I do share his frustration with the amount of the book dedicated to Danni's story that had become bogged down and dull. Theon's story on the other hand was riveting. Even Tyrion's story, despite anything with that character being interesting, seemed to be treading water in ADWD.

Anonymous said...

carter: good points, but the epilogue is not a POV chapter, and if it works anything like the prologues have thus far... then I think we can be safely assured that Kevan is dead.

Anonymous said...

So I just had to see what some other people thought of the Jon Snow death thing. Personally, he's one of my favorite characters, after Tyrion, and how am I gonna read about the Wall if he dies?! I don't want to read from Melisandre's perspective (heaven forbid).

I don't think Melisandre had anything to do with it. Queen Selyse, perhaps, and definitely Marsh, but I think that as vilified as the red priestess has been, she's a villain. That doesn't mean I have to like her though.

As far as Daenarys is concerned, she's an important part of the books, possibly THE most important part. Still, she got boring a LOT in the last couple of books she was in, but hopefully that will change now that she's not in Mereen anymore.

Anonymous said...

Before reading Game of Thrones, my favorite story of all was "THE STAND" BY STEPHEN KING. I'M SO FUSTRATED WITH THIS TALE OF FIRE AND ICE. FOR THE LAST 2 YEARS I HAVE DILIGENTLY READ ALL 4 BOOKS AND ONE BY ONE ALL OF MY FAVORITE CHARACTERS ARE BEING KILLED OFF! THERE ARE TOO MANY NEW CHARACTERS BEING INTRODUCED AND NO CLOSURE! IF YOU READ THIS MR. GEORGE RR MARTIN, PLEASE WRITE ONE MORE TALE AND LET YOUR FANS REUNITE WITH THE ONES WE FELL IN LOVE WITH: THE STARKS

Anonymous said...

i read this and i thought at the time that him being Azor Ahai would completly ruin the series(at least for me), i mean isint it classic that one characters has a secret power(my personal opinon), bring in someone new i say or begin going into a character we have barely gone into.it would be amazing if Tyrion becomes Azor Ahai say he ends up in myr and some red prist sees him.also to add a little prophisy (sorry i botched the spelling) i belive that the Others will eventually bring down the wall after several heated(or cooled in their case) battles by Produceing the fabeled horn of joraman. this may or may not immiataly attack the (possably) approching forces of the dread fort. and also thorstein it is possable that the karstarks are trying to provoke the dreadfort to attack the wall in order to get alys karstark or the karstark imprisoned there.

-RM

Scepie said...

*SPOILERS*
First chapter of Winds of Winter (book 6) is out on George's site.
Stannis didn't die.

Anonymous said...

Something I'd like to note. I found neither the betrayal of Jon's brothers nor the attack on Wun Wun to be inherently linked. Rather, his brothers saw the attack on Wun Wun as opportunity to put an end to what they might consider to be a traitor of the Night's Watch. Jon betrayed his vows when he spoke with the intent to war with the Bolton's. Having promised never to tangle in the affairs of the Seven Kingdoms, you can gather a sense why his brothers felt a need to put him down. Of course, nothing is as it seems with Martin. Do I believe Jon to be dead? Certainly not, knowing Martin. He may kill people off on a whim at times, but that is all his great illusion. It makes for a fantastic story and keeps the reader guessing.

As for Wun Wun, if you'll recall it was said by Jon that the way to win the hand of a wildling was to steal her and essentially dominate her. Ser Patrek had been chosen for a match with Val a few pages before by Queen Selyse. Ser Patrek boasted that it wouldn't be hard for him to do, establishing a motive. Wun Wun just so happened to be guarding Val's chambers in a room below her if you remember. Val even commented on how having a giant as a bodyguard was a big deal. In my mind, it makes sense that Ser Patrek confronted the giant with all the foolhardiness of a knight of the seven kingdoms and was slain in the process.

It's also been brought up about the note Jon received. If you haven't been following, the Bolton's are manipulative as all hell. I believe they have Mance, but that's as far as it goes. I think they mean to use Arya (Jeyne) as a bargaining chip against Stannis' army and believe that the Night's Watch has her. Of course, this is the most difficult part of Martin's work to decipher and it's entirely possible that Stannis' army has been routed while Theon and Jeyne are still missing.

It should also be noted that Bolton somehow knows who the Night's Watch has in their possession, which could mean that there is a spy unless we believe that Mance told them everything he knew. The way in which Jon's men left him at the feasting hall when speaking about going south to face the Bolton's makes me think there's some trickery afoot. But worry not fellow Song of Ice and Fire readers, Jon Snow is still very much alive.

-Indy

MD said...

Okay, here goes the truth.

Let's start with Jon Snow heritage. He is no bastard of Edd's, but he indeed is blood related to him. He is son of Lyanna and Rhaegar. He is the third head of the three-headed dragon ( aegon + rhaenys or daenerys + rhaenys are the other two, depends if we take three males of three living)

Another thing is that Stannis is dead (well, its 95% sure for me). And we have a dying very important character on the wall. The 100% fact is that Jon Stark will rebirthe as Azor Ahai. Let's not argue here, Azor was fighting the others with flaming sword (only Jon can fit cause Stannis is dead and his sword was false), Melisandre looking for Azor Ahai - Stannis could see only Jon, etc.

There is also another thing which probably will come with heritage of Jon Snow and things said by Melisandre. As everyone remembers she needed a royal blood to awaken the stone dragon, and there the blood is...

Anonymous said...

If you read the excerpt from George R. R. Martin's site, you will find out what is going on from the point of view of Theon. I don't want to reveal anything here, so I won't talk about that here.

Jon, in my opinion, isn't dead as of yet. However, he might be dying or imprisoned at the start of the next book. Personally I think he's going to be one of the 3 dragon riders, with Viserion being his dragon (He's all white, like Ghost, and his eyes are red, like Ghost.)

The letter I think is just provocation; Stannis hasn't been mentioned for a while and there is no evidence that he is dead so far. If he is, the whole thing with the Braavosi bank and such would be a complete waste and would have no point of even being in the story.

Ryjacork said...

I stopped reading this about half way through when your wanna be pseudo intellectualism just got too much to bear. First of all don't make fun of other peoples comments when you yourself clearly have no idea what yourbtalking about.

Do people survive being stabbed? Yes. Do they survive being stabbed between the fucking shoulder blades? Not without modern medicine. So no, Jon is not going to just get patched up. And btw it's not that four is the magic number, it's the bit about him never dealing the fourth knife "only cold".

This is all just a reflection of Martins fucked up view of the world. If someone is good and strong and brave and good looking they will die. If somones a fat coward or a deformed dwarf or an ugly woman they will survive the worst scrapes. Although even Tyrion is getting chizzled away piece by piece, he will die in the end too, mark my words. Evil will always triumph over good in Martins world, nothing will ever stay pure. Arya is becoming a little sociopath, Tyrion is starting to hate the world, ect.

I've come to accept at this point the Starks will never rise again, and while many of the people we hate will die, so will all the characters we love. Jon might survive, but if he does it will be like Bran or Lady Stoneheart, or as a wolf. The best we can hope for is Milisandre bringing him back to life.

J. Lyon Layden said...

Hi Ryjacork. If you're really defending the comments the guy made that I quoted in the original post then I guess you must enjoy comic books more than literature too. Nothing wrong with that, not making fun!
GRRs view of the world is one thing, but his being a great writer who isn't going to end a book without it having a resolving plot after all of these literary set-ups is another. If you have a paypal account I'll bet you some money that 1. Jon Snow survives. (People feel "only the cold" when they go numb from pain too. "Feeling only the cold " is not another phrase for "death" because dead people don't feel anything at all.) or 2. Jon Snow is raised as Azur Ahai
On a side note...
Without modern medical practices? Are you serious? Do you think modern medical practices can make a Franken- Clegane? Revive a Dondarrion with a split skull who's been legally dead 5 times?
Methinks Westeros has one up on modern medicine.

Stefan said...

Stannis is not dead, nor is Theon. GRRM released a chapter from "The Winds of Winter" that features both characters. Also Jon is not dead. I also agree that Jon is one of the three dragons along with Dany and Aegon. After the Battle of the Trident, Ned and a few companions traveled to the Tower of Joy to find Ned's sister. She was being guarded by three of the best knights in the Kingsguard (instead of them being with Rhaegar). After the knights are defeated, and as Lyanna lay dying, she extracts a promise from Ned which is never told. I believe that promise was for Ned to raise and protect her son by Prince Rhaegar, namely Jon. So Ned raised Jon as his son never telling him the truth of his parentage.

J. Lyon Layden said...

Stefan...thanks man, killer reply! Although I disagree about Stannis; I don't think he's dead either, but also I don't think the "Winds of Winter" chapter proves that he is not. The chapter could be from the past...i.e. just before Bolton attacked and routed him. I hope that is the case anyway, and Martin is great at dashing my hopes, granted. But Martin switches back and forth in time quite often, so I 'm still thinking it's situation that's still remaiing to be seen.

Also I'm not convinced that Aegon is the 3rd dragon. It just leans so close to deux ex machina for Martin...I just think that all of the characters introduced in the last couple of books aren't going to be playing quite that significant a role...
However, you DO seem to have more information than I have...I don't remember reading about Ded's promise to Lyanna...what book is that in?

J. Lyon Layden said...

As far as whether I should or shouldn't post "Is Jon Snow Dead" as the title of this blog, here's the deal;
Only people who have read the book will be searching keyword "Is Jon Snow Dead" on Google, and my regular readers are mostly anthropology fans. Also, seeing the words "Is Jon Snow Dead" would not give away anything to someone who hasn't read it yet if they stumbled upon it, because there's all kinds of speculations about the deaths of many of Martin's characters in various blog titles...some of whom have much less warrant to be speculated about in the books themselves. But as an avid reader of fan of suspense, I DO respect your concern.
Plus...I admit...yeah, it's getting a tremendous amount of hits...

J. Lyon Layden said...

Also, I do have a spoiler right under the title.
The Thorstein- Martin doesn't have any "ghosts in the machine" so there is nothing to be amateurist about it...so yes I agree with you.

Also, sorry about the mistake with the Karstarks and Umbers; my point was that they weren't Bolton's men and that they were indeed picked up.

Also to Ryjacork:
I hope that most people would consider my harsh reply to the first poster I criticized totally warranted. The guy blatantly and directly insults Martin, to the point displaying aggression and possibly personal hatred...as if the writer had actually done him some kind of physical or emotional harm. I think it might be better for everybody of people like that would just stick to comic books. I'd hate to be around the guy when he's on an emotional rant about a freaking "work of fiction" he's reading.

In fact, I'm the author of the children's book "The Other Side of Yore" which might be more his speed; only the bad guys die in it and the characters are very wholesome like the more "goodie-goodie" characters he likes in Martin's books.

Anonymous said...

I'm gunning for bran taking over the giant with his warg skills (thats why the giant is mentioned!!), beating the crap out of Jons attackers with the remains of the knight (recusing him in the process), arya's wolf and ghost will appear and eat a few necks to help too. And Benjin Stark will be involved too, not sure how but he will be in the mix. Think the Boltons are bluffing, maybe except for Mance Rayder, or it could possibly be from Stannis as a ploy to bring the Watch into the game of thrones, mischief everywhere, ha ha!!

Anonymous said...

i am inclined to believe that john snow is the sone of lyanna and Rhaegar, but if he is dragon blood, why did his hand get burned when he killed the white walker in the lord commander's tower? shouldn't he be immune to fire like danaerey is?

qasim said...

as much as i want to like these book. i am hating it, the first quote is exactly the thought that i have. I dont like daenerys, or the mother of all bitches cersei, or catelyn.

my most beloved characters are arya,jon,bran,tyrion(but he's not that cunning in eastern shores). theon was also good as someone mentioned, if jon is dead. this series is finished for me. well i am not a avid reader, these are the only books that i've read. but i hate them.

why just all bad people stay alive apart from that stupid girl somewhere east. doran was stupid, but he shouldve been given a dragon in my book :P .

anyway its martin's books, his characters, his story. and i hate him for it. :) hope jon will survive.. and danerys will die and aegon will conquer westeros sharing with stannis.

J. Lyon Layden said...

With Stannis, really? I'm just curious why so many people like him, he's such a flat character which always led me to believe he's filling a supporting role.

Anonymous said...

I haven't read every comment so far so someone might have pointed this out...

Neither Jon or Stannis are listed as dead in the list of houses at the end of the book. Rob, Ned etc. have descriptions of how they died. (This might just be hope, there's only so many times a favourite main character can die!)

Anonymous said...

Jon Snow is not dead. That is so obvious (or i'm just being biased coz' i love him T.T). He is one of the main characters in the book so it will do nothing to kill him too early. There are so many issues revolving around Jon that will be left hanging if his character dies. One is his lineage, the Others and the like. And i believe that he is Azor ahai. The book wants us to believe that it is Dany, but isn't it quite obvious and too early to reveal if in fact Dany is Azor?I know Martin can do better than that. Remember whenever Melisandre asks for Stanis (whom melisandre believes to be Azor), the fire shows to her Jon Snow and what's with the craven saying Snow, King, Jon Snow, Jon Snow. Plus I believe in this equation R+L=J :P. So yeah, those are my points.

And one more thing, I've read some comments hating Theon?c'mon, he has such a good story line here. But I must confess, I'm bored reading Dany's POVs and I don't like her character that much.

Anonymous said...

i'm also of the opinion that jon snow is really the offspring of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

jon snow even thinks to himself that the wound bowan marsh gives him is smoking. the same as dany thinks of dragon wounds, when she remembers drogons wounds smoking.

but, as much as won't jon snow to be alive, the prospect fills me with dread.

Beric Dondarrion's revivals left him mutated. they also made him forget parts of his past, his personality.

if melisandre resurects people in the same manner that thoros of myr does, would we really want jon snow to live but not remembar his past.

i do believe he will live through marsh's attack. but, will he still be jon snow...

i think not. but a part of him is going to be a third of the three headed dragon.

Anonymous said...

by the way, the "listings" of the houses is dated at the atart of each book.

so, if someone dies during a book. i.e. robb stark. they won't appear as dead in the "listings" 'til the start of the next book.

MC said...

Jon Snow is not dead. He is the only thing holding the alliance with Stannis, the Wildlings, and the Nights Watch together. The Wildlings are all south of the wall and the only crow they respect and trust is Jon. If they succeeded in killing him every crow would sign their own death warrant. I expect the Wildlings saved Jon from being stabbed to death and how he answers this treachery will be interesing.

Stannis is not dead as Martin released an excerpt.

Also Bowen Marsh hinted as his wounds smoking which proves he is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar as he has dragon blood in him. They always reference the three headed dragon I believe its Jon, Dany and Rahegar's other son Aegon. Jon controls the wall / North, Aegon will control the south, and Dany will bring the Dragons to kill the others.

Anonymous said...

I definitely think Jon lives. When you really think about it the phrase "he never felt the fourth knife, only the cold" could imply that the fourth knife never even made it to him (plenty of other people there, some of whom are still loyal to him who could have saved him). This means that the other three cuts are a light scratch to the throat, one to the stomach and one in the back, which is conceivable to survive, in my opinion.

Chris said...

As a commenter on the EW web site pointed out, Jon's wound is described as "SMOKING" in the cold air - note: not "steaming," which would seem to be a very deliberate word choice - and Bowen Marsh's tears are SALTY.

So what do we know about SALT and SMOKE?

Linda Lou said...

I love this thread.

First I thought to my self; If GRRM would behead my beloved Ned while his dummy wife gets to be an undead that murders (innocent people- Brianne of Tarth), then he (GRRM) is the kind of author that will kill Jon Snow and Ghost too.

AND, if GRRM would allow Sansa to continue on (as Little Finger's property) as if it wasn't her secret message to Cerci that got her father Ned beheaded; then YES, it is possible for Jon Snow to be dead. I agree with the person who wrote that the POV character who sees his death is not dead. But if it is witnessed by some other POV character in their chapter, then Jon is dead,

If it turns out that I am wrong, I will still re-read the Game of Thrones searies but I will skip the chapters I hated and only read the parts that I enjoyed the first time.

FcArcher891 said...

It is very possible that jon snow is dead but so was cat stark and lord beric but they both came back due to a fire priest and guess who is at. The wall a mesllandria who has as special interest in jon snow which meams if he didnt survive the knife wounds she will more than likely bring him back..

Anonymous said...

To the person who said:

"If the POV character sees another person die, they are dead. If the POV charcter himeself is dying, they are not dead."

I would just like to point out the following:

Kevan Lannister gets shot with a crossbow and stabbed at the end of DWD, from his perspective, and i'm pretty sure it's safe to say he is dead.
Ned Stark gets beheaded while you are reading from his perspective.
The guy in the prologue of the 4th book gets hung in the first 10 pages while reading his perspective.
Cat Stark gets her throat slit while in her perspective, (yes, she is resurrected, but she is still killed at the time.)
The ranger in the prologue of the first book gets killed by a white walker while reading his perspective.
Quentyn, the Dornish prince, gets roasted alive by a dragon while in his perspective.
The Red Viper, the other Dornish prince gets his face smashed to a pulp and is crushed to death by Clegane, while in his perspective.

So while I don't want Jon Snow to be dead, and I will be very pissed if he is, I just want to point out that George Martins actually kills off character while in their POV at least once or twice in every book. It's one of the reasons I love and also hate his books.

ClevelandGooner said...

"Their main grievance is that Jon doesn't hate the wildlings, and goes against their ancient prejudices by being civil with them."

I didn't read through this entire thread, so I'm not certain if anyone else brought this up. Snow isn't stabbed because of his positing regarding wildlings, he's stabbed because he's planning on marching south. Away from the wall. He's an oathbreaker, that's why he gets shanked.

Anonymous said...

Maybe this is going way out but one scenario I thought of while reading all of these comments was what if Mance sent the letter to Jon? He is the only other person that would know all of those details and is under control of Melissandre. She definitely did not want Jon going to rescue the wildlings and even warned him of the coming letter and asked him about his wolf. She knew what was going to happen. And no I do not believe Jon is dead. Stannis and Melissandre want Jon to be lord of Winterfell, so why not "kill" him off to release him from his vows of the night watch? Just some things to think about ;)

J. Lyon Layden said...

Possibly but that sentence in the letter "I WANT MY REEK!!" is so very Bastard of Bolton-like....and have Mance or Mellisandre even been in contact with him to know his personality? My Melisandre could see it in the flames but...you're right, it's possible but a little out there...

TTD said...

"In the cold night air the wound was smoking."

and

"He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold ..."

John Snow is not dead and they are about to be attacked by the Others.

TTD said...

The 3 headed Dragon?

1. Dany- Black

2. John- White

3. Bran- Green

"You will never walk again, but you will fly."

Anonymous said...

I wish people would stop saying Jon is deserting the Night's Watch - he explicitly states in his 'leaving speech' that the Night Watch plays no part in the affairs of the realm. He uses Ramsay's threat against him as a threat against the Night's Watch, so by marching South he is defending the Night's Watch.

Aryanna said...

He,I need a conclusion !!!Is Jon Snow dead?
Will G.R.R.Martin write a new volume of A Song Of Ce And Fire?
Please, give me an answer!!!!

Warren said...

Dany is azor ahai. She was born with salt and smoke and she has all ready given birth to dragons from stone ie the stone eggs. This was done by sacrificing the blood of a king (khal drogo) and the son of a king ( her own son rheagar) and to top it all off her coming coincided with the red comet!

I thought this was a well known fact! Maybe just in my head.. I would be highly dissatisfied if Jon snow is dead. But you can't put it past George to do something like that. Just when you think a character is about to accomplish something and is in the process og rebuilding, Martin puts them to sleep.. On the other hand grrm also loves to make his readers think someone is dead only to pleasantly surprise us in the end. Like bran and rickon, brianne and theon. In this case I believe Jon is not dead, but he is certainly not azor ahai.

As to stannis, Bolton unleashed the freys and maderleys to deal with who he thought was stannis outside the walls of winterfell. They probably defeated the umbers and thought they defeated stannis. Having not found neither his bride nor his reek, he probably suspected that Stannis' only ally in the north (Jon) is sheltering them.

Warren said...

Dany is azor ahai. She was born with salt and smoke and she has all ready given birth to dragons from stone ie the stone eggs. This was done by sacrificing the blood of a king (khal drogo) and the son of a king ( her own son rheagar) and to top it all off her coming coincided with the red comet!

I thought this was a well known fact! Maybe just in my head.. I would be highly dissatisfied if Jon snow is dead. But you can't put it past George to do something like that. Just when you think a character is about to accomplish something and is in the process og rebuilding, Martin puts them to sleep.. On the other hand grrm also loves to make his readers think someone is dead only to pleasantly surprise us in the end. Like bran and rickon, brianne and theon. In this case I believe Jon is not dead, but he is certainly not azor ahai.

As to stannis, Bolton unleashed the freys and maderleys to deal with who he thought was stannis outside the walls of winterfell. They probably defeated the umbers and thought they defeated stannis. Having not found neither his bride nor his reek, he probably suspected that Stannis' only ally in the north (Jon) is sheltering them.

J. Lyon Layden said...

Nice observances Warren! Wondering what you might think about Tyrian saying that he killed his nephew? Is he being sarcastic or do you think he did it?

Anonymous said...

I'm a bit late to the discussion here, but i'll give my theory a go;

I feel like this Jon Snow chapter was a bit foreshadowed by a few chapters this book, including the Prologue that usually isn't super relevant to its accompanying book.

I'm not entirely convinced that the mutineers were in fact mutineers, and that rather they were under control of a skinchanger. Most likely Borroq.

Throughout the books, including the prologue to ADWD we've known that humans aren't too fond of being leapt into. Hodor freaks out whenever Bran jumps into him, and in the prologue to ADWD we see that Varamyr tries to take over Thistle but is unable to and dies in the process.

Jon's first attacker seems to be completely oblivious to the fact that he tried to kill his leader, and backs off as if saying "it wasn't me, it wasn't me"
Bowen Marsh is then crying as he stabs Jon snow in the stomach. Bowen was obviously pissed off about Jon deciding to march on Winterfell, but I don't think he would have immediately resulted to killing him. Its very unlike Marsh to do this.

Ghost had conquered One Eye(varamyr) and his pack, and perhaps brought them to the wall, where Varamyr, who hated Jon Snow, was able to communicate with Borroq and used their combined skinchanging to out will some of the weaker nightswatch men who were distressed from the Shieldhall meeting.

I believe Jon Snow will survive this attack, possibly with help from Melisandre. 4 stabs is all we see, but this is because it is Jon's POV and he blacked out as the 4th hit him, could have been several more that followed. I think some sort of red magic will be required to help him recover.

Regardless of the outcome, this definitely ranks among my top 5 chapters. (ned stark death, red wedding, bran warging into the tree in winterfell, the red viper vs the mountain)
Just goes to show you that NOBODY is safe in the Song of Ice and Fire.

Anonymous said...

I searched Google on 'is jon snow dead' and found this blog - and am glad the tag line worked.
I have read the early books, went in a few days ago to buy ADWD and flicking through read what happended to Jon and Arya, thoroughly annoyed I put the book down and left the shop. I hope Mr Martin is aware that readership is measured in sales. However I have transferred my readership to Google blogs and am enthralled again.

Warren said...

Tyrion just said it to hurt Jamie. Joff was killed by the queen of thorns with little finger' aid. Well that's my opinion.

Only thing that bothers me about the mutineers not being in control theory, are the words "for the watch". Really confusing. But hey, that's why we love George. My only regret is that I wish I only started reading this series in 9 and a half years time.. Cause that's probably when the last book will come out..

Anonymous said...

What I enjoy most of these books is George Martin's fearlessness. When Bran was pushed off the tower, I had an "oh snap!" moment, and that was it, I was hooked. Anyone can go at anytime. Such is life. People are conniving, people die, and the good guy doesn't always ride off into the sunset.

I don't think Jon's dead. Stannis isn't dead and Ramsay's letter was a ruse. I was pretty irritated that so much of the story took place in Meereen, and I don't care much for the precious Stormborn...but Martin's driving the bus and I'm on it. I just hope he doesn't die before the series is finished.

Kalix said...

I assumed everyone new what happened with Joffrey, but a recap.

Pre-Tywins death, and the news that tysha is not a whore...
Tyrion states multiple times that he would never hurt a Lannister, least of all his child nephews.

He said it to hurt Jaime, i think i recall him stating as much in a later chapter...
but the following facts were definately mentioned:

- The queen of thorns quizzes sansa at a lady's brunch/lunch about the 'real' Joffrey, and subsequently doesn't want margaery to be his new punchbag.

- Sansa was given a hairnet with gemstones to wear by the old lady of thorns.

- The old lady 'fixes' sansa's hairnet during the feast (well within reach of joffreys cup).

-Joffrey dies very soon after

- The hairnet is missing a gem after joffrey's murder.


pretty clear cut as far as these books go!

Kalix said...

I was also curious about Stefan's comment: Ned's promise to Lyanna.

A quick google reveals it was way back in book one, Chapter 35...

The memory occurs while Ned is visiting one of Robert's bastards in a brothel with LittleFinger, Ned vows the bastard will be cared for...his flashback occurs immediately after.

the timing of Ned's flashback adds some credence to those who believe that Jon is Lyanna's bastard...doesnt it? :)

Anonymous said...

I feel that Jon Snow felt the cold because he was forced to warg into Ghost's body. Wun Wun and other wildlings will intervene before his body can expire. He will eventually warg into his body fulfilling Melisandre's vision. This is because he is AA reborn. He had the dream about facing the others with red sword in hand. Also agree with him being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna but that doesn't make him a targaryen. Unless it was made legit by King Rhaegar...possibility. Wondering if the PWWP prophesy could be interpreted to mean a dragon instead of a prince? The dragon has three heads...Dany, Aegon, and Jon. Thoughts?

reeses buttercup said...

I'll tell you why Jon Snow and Stannis aren't dead...yet.
We thought Briene died on the tree. Nope
We thought Asha got her head split with an axe. Nope
Catleyn Stark? Born again.
Theon still alive? More lives than a cat.
Mance? Thought he burned...nope
Jon and Stannis are still around in some way with Stannis most likely to fall first.

reeses buttercup said...

I'll tell you why Jon Snow and Stannis aren't dead...yet.
We thought Briene died on the tree. Nope
We thought Asha got her head split with an axe. Nope
Catleyn Stark? Born again.
Theon still alive? More lives than a cat.
Mance? Thought he burned...nope
Jon and Stannis are still around in some way with Stannis most likely to fall first.

reeses buttercup said...

I'll tell you why Jon Snow and Stannis aren't dead...yet.
We thought Briene died on the tree. Nope
We thought Asha got her head split with an axe. Nope
Catleyn Stark? Born again.
Theon still alive? More lives than a cat.
Mance? Thought he burned...nope
Jon and Stannis are still around in some way with Stannis most likely to fall first.

Anonymous said...

The Dragon has three heads. Daenaerys has three dragons. There are three surving Targaryean children. The dragon queen, the boy prince and the illegitimate love child of Lyanna Stark and Prince Rhaegar

Anonymous said...

Awesome posts guys and gals! Here is how I think it will go down with Jon in the next book or two;

Right before Jon dies, he wargs into Ghost. He will not be able to warg out of him since his warging skills are not as great as Brans (something to do with him being half Stark, half Targarian). Melisandra will have to kill Ghost with Jon's valarian sword and some magic in order to get him back into his own body. In doing so, Jon's sword becomes the real Lightbringer (cold) and Jon becomes Azor Ahai and finally becomes a badass like his brother was since he will have no more ties with the Black Watch. This all happens at Dragonstone, hence the resurection of the Dragon.

He will eventually meat up and lead his step-brother and step-sister (children compared to him), along with the dragons, Arya's wolf packs, Bran's N.S.A. type intelligence gathering, the wildlings, and perhaps even the Whites to victory over the mal-contents. It will take a couple of more books until the other two dragons get big enough though. The white one will be Jon's (Ghost look-a-like). Sam will play an important role at the Citadel, he will most likely find a way to control the whites since he is closely tied to them for some reason in the other books. Westeros and all the Free Cities will be ruled under them and so will end the Age of the False Kings. Spring will awaken at this time as well.

Anonymous said...

I think he's "dead" but this is far from the end of Jon Snow's story.

I've noticed in previous books that Martin likes to associate death with cold. When Renly dies he says the word cold. When Catelyn's throat is slit she feels the cold. To me, Jon feeling the "cold" at the end seemed to imply the same "cold" felt when a character is about to die.

I don't think this so-called death is permanent though. The prologue spends a good deal of time explaining what happens to wargs when they die, that they live another live in another being, in Varamyr's case, he warged into a wolf and ran off. Why would Martin give us this information if it weren't relevant? I think it is strongly suggesting that he "dies" and wargs into Ghost most likely.

Melisandre's last chapter also seems to support this theory as she sees skulls around Jon Snow when she sees him in her flames. The visions in her flames also suggest other things regarding Snow, and why we haven't seen the last of him.

Two things of importance are suggested in her chapter. For starters when he prays to see Azor Ahai in her flames she keeps trying to see Stannis, and is confused as to why instead of Stannis she sees only Jon Snow. I know it's cliche, but we may have to accept that Jon is Azor Ahai reborn. I know Dany is also another strong candidate. Would it be wrong for both of them to be Azor Ahai reborn? Anyway, point #2 in her flames she sees Jon, then he turns into a wolf, then he turns BACK into a man again. So it seems to be this is spelling out exactly what will happen. He'll warg into Ghost, his body dead or may be close to death. Something or someone will bring him back to a man again, just as Melisandre sees in her flames. As she has put it before, the flames don't lie. She just doesn't understand what they mean yet.

Anonymous said...

Loving and hating the comments here.

I'd say don't underestimate what Stannis and Roose are capable of. I agree with anyone who says that Stannis is a flat character, but I think he's more of a foil/base-line/control character. He's also kind of the 90's Cowboys: everyone knows what he's going to do, but no one seems to be able to REALLY stop him. That said, from the preview all I can say is that he's not dead, yet...

For me, I want to catch up with Davos (and presumably Rickon/Osha?)

Also, I know we're all entitled to our opinions, but why all the Danaerys hate? Is it just the poor picture painted of the Targaryans in the first book? Every scene has different sides to it, Aerys was mad, he's described as a horrible person who did horrible things. A vile man who got his just dues by being rebelled against and betrayed and lost his life and kingdom. Then again, maybe it's the creepy incest... but GRRM pretty regularly asks his readers to accept his characters as we'd accept people: in the present, for their deeds and actions (not for their backgrounds - with caveats).

So, yeah, I <3 stormborn. I also love that she might be borderline schizophrenic, what with her mysterious, masked riddler - who seems to show up whether she' dreaming or awake. And I can't wait until she meets "the lion" she's to be wary of (Tyrion? Yes, please).

I came here looking for solace, 3/4's of the way through this book, I remember thinking that JS was really flying high, and I was loving it. It wouldn't be the first time a character flew a little too high and fell, though those characters seem to endure a punishment and live. I want him to be alive... but all this Azor Ahai talk, well, um, I guess I prefer Dany's take on prophecy: words. and words are wind.

stedal said...

Awesome posts guys and gals! Here is how I think it will go down with Jon in the next book or two;

Right before Jon dies, he wargs into Ghost. He will not be able to warg out of him since his warging skills are not as great as Brans (something to do with him being half Stark, half Targarian). Melisandra will have to kill Ghost with Jon's valarian sword and some magic in order to get him back into his own body. In doing so, Jon's sword becomes the real Lightbringer (cold) and Jon becomes Azor Ahai and finally becomes a badass like his brother was since he will have no more ties with the Black Watch. This all happens at Dragonstone, hence the resurection of the Dragon.

He will eventually meat up and lead his step-brother and step-sister (children compared to him), along with the dragons, Arya's wolf packs, Bran's N.S.A. type intelligence gathering, the wildlings, and perhaps even the Whites to victory over the mal-contents. It will take a couple of more books until the other two dragons get big enough though. The white one will be Jon's (Ghost look-a-like). Sam will play an important role at the Citadel, he will most likely find a way to control the whites since he is closely tied to them for some reason in the other books. Westeros and all the Free Cities will be ruled under them and so will end the Age of the False Kings. Cue Spring.

Anonymous said...

When I first read "only the cold" I immediately thought of the others. What if Jon became an other? They feel no pain, and are the very embodiment of cold. We've never seen how they think, and this could be Martin's way of revealing the mind(s) of the others through Jon Snow. This is just a theory though.

Stefan Harrison said...

Alright, a few things to point out:

Some guy commented about Jon Snow having the Targaryen abilities with dragons. IF he is Rhaegar's son, this is half-possible, but if you remember, when Jon saved Commander Mormont from the wight in the tower, his hand was burned by the lantern he used to kill it. The burned hand is referred to often as Jons 'habbit' of flexing the fingers on his burned hand.
This disguises the purpose of him burning his hand. It shows that he does not have the blood of the dragon and can be harmed by fire. I haven't seen anyone say that yet, but just thought i'd point it out.

As to his final chapter in ADWD, Martin writes 'he never felt the fourth knife'. This could mean that a) there was no fourth knife, and the giant and his friends fought off the attackers (as Horse and Rory were with him and were not mentioned during the stabbing), or b) the fourth knife came, and he just didn't feel it due to dying.

Overall, I think Jon is probably still alive, as whenever a main character has been killed before, Martin has made it obvious, like Robb being stabbed through the heart, Ned Starks execution, Arys Oakheart being decapitated by Areo...

Now.. weigh that against Bran falling from the tower (just falling, and not revealing he was alive until the next chapter) Catelyn Stark clawing her own face, as the Freys moved in on her at the red wedding (but not dead, as she becomes Stoneheart), Davos Seaworth was reported as dead to Cersei in A feast for crows, though not being revealed as living until the next book), Arya being run down by Sandor Clegane outside the twins and 'hit with an axe' which turned out to be the flat side, as Sandor didn't want her to die (again, not revealed until the next chapter). Brienne of Tarth had a noose put around her neck and was being strangled (only to change her mind and come meet with Jaime in ADWD), Sandor Clegane is probably also the 'gravedigger' at the quiet isle, as he has wounds matching Sandors, and is the same height...

The letter from Ramsay asked about those that fled to stannis, mentioning 'my reek'. The letter starts with the word 'bastard' to anger Jon, but as people have pointed out, this could have been forged by someone else. Jon refuses Melisandre's advice before all of this happens, (which last time resulted in her disgusing Mance as Rattleshirt, against King Stannis' will). Melisandre will do whatever needs to be done to have her visions become reality, and perhaps she knew of Ramsay and Reek from the flames, forging this letter to provoke Jon to march south, instead of going to Hardhome.

Much is yet to come, Jon did not feel the fourth knife, has an army of wildlings and some loyal Watchmen surrounding him, along with a Red Priestess that can probably bring people back from the dead, not to mention a giant...

As for me... I have hated the persona of Ramsay Snow for a while now, and Stannis even compared him and Jon once, "well, if it can convince one Snow, let's hope it can convince another" (might not have been Stannis, forgive me if I'm wrong). And Ramsay now has the 'Lord of Winterfell' title that Jon came so close to taking.

I want to see the Jon show Ramsay who the real bastard is, with Valyrian steel and an army of wildlings, but it may not happen... 5 years will tell, I guess

Beano said...

Visit GRRM's official website and read the sneak "sample" chapter and you will find out that both Stannis and Theon Greyjoy are still alive. although at the end of that chapter Stannis seems to be in trouble, but that is left to interpretation.

Jon Snow was one of my favorite characters along with Tyrion and others who have kicked the bucket already.

Truly hoping thatJon Snow is still alive.

Valar Morghulis.

bj said...

You make predictions based on your apparent belief that Martin is a literary genius. He isn't. No one who uses the phrase "mummer's farce" to describe every situation in an entire series is a particularly good writer. The books could go anywhere really and it would be completely unsurprising if snow is dead, given that Martin's idea of being unpredictable is killing off any character that is somewhat likeable. The writing is terrible, sustained only by the reader wanting to know what happens next. For once, a screen adaptation is far more accomplished than the books. I wish I hadn't read them!

adam said...

Re: "only the cold" - GRRM's dragons come in two varieties (does no-one read his short stories any more?).

Ice dragons, that are made of ice and die if exposed to summer sun.

Fire dragons, that are made of fire and smoke, but appear to be flesh-and-blood.

I originally assumed that the Song of Ice and Fire was about Ice and Fire dragons, although the dragonglass and Others made it look like maybe he'd dropped the ice dragons to focus on dragons = fire = only way to kill Others.

Anyway ... it could be that the "cold" is the coming of the first ice dragon, awakened by Jon's blood.

(I don't think it is - that would be rather sudden. I'd have expected some preview sighting of ice dragons when Bran went to the extreme north. But hey, if you're looking for more wild theories...)

Anonymous said...

I think that the comment made regarding the points of view was astute. Martin has a good style, and he hasn't compromised it. Based on previous chapters, if a POV character sees it, it is true. Jon will live.

but as for riding the dragon... i want that.... but has anyone thought maybe bran will BECOME one of the dragons? he needs to learn how to fly, and i just don't think they were talking of ravens.

it's also worth noting that the person who talked about wun wun guarding val, right on. I totally suspect patrek was making a go for the cell and wun wun did his job.

The new released chapters from the next book answer a lot about this thread.

And what is death anyway in these books? Lady Stark is still out there somewhere, undead and angry.

Anonymous said...

Based on where Bran is and what he can do (See past, present & future) I thought he was the crow that is with Jon, which would also explain the flying thing. The things that the crow says are usually more complex then you thing depending on what people are talking about at the time.

Arya found out in book 2maybe3 Who Jon's mother was and what happened to her so I don't understand why people think he was Lianna Starks child. I would like there to be more to it but we haven't really had the question poised since that chapter with Arya.

Dany was interesting now she's boring and all she does is sit around and listen to marriage proposals. Why on Earth we have to see so many chapters revolving around her when far more interesting things are happening in Winterfell beats me.

Anonymous said...

Having read all of these posts, I find the one immediately before mine the most interesting. There are 3 dragons..there are 3 interesting "Starks" left living (Sansa and Rickon haven't had the impact of Jon, Bran, and Arya.) I think Arya's story is really the most interesting.
As for Jon snow being dead, I don't think this will actually come to pass. I think Jon snow is the child of Lyanna (SP?) Stark and either Rhaegar or King Robert--only the Reed fellow knows...
I like the idea of Jon being Melissandre's s Azor Ashai...I guess we will see in another several years.
I also agree that the guy pitching a fit should pick up Robert Jordan's books--they are finished. I do fear that Mr Martin will not finish the series and leave us hanging. Someone needs to force a vegan diet on him and wrap him in cotton wool so he can finish this story!

Anonymous said...

Well im a fan of jon and i would hate to see him die as did his cousin(robb) and uncle(ned) you may be wondering why i say cousin and uncle. I believe that lyana is jons son. I was on another website god i wish i remembered it but the guy went over 3 girls that had the strongest evidence of being jons mother wylla was his wet nurse as was stated in got and sos and lyana made ned promise to return her home when she was dying in a room that smelled of "blood and roses" why would her room smell of blood? There was no fighting inside her room. The battle was outside the castle and ned killed the kingsguards in a hall. So i feel like she died giving childbirth. More peices of evidence is that when robert and ned are talking on the kings road about whores and neds girl ned specifically does not go into detail about wylla hes an honorable man who doesnt lie so he gives him her names and skates over the part about her being jons son. Now we can go back to lyana and rhaegar. It was said rhaegar married his dorne wife for political purpose but his heart belonged to lyanna when they met at harrenhal for a tournament and they quickley fell in love. Well that was a terrible explanation. So i went and backtracked and found the site with proposed mothers take a look at it and you might become a believer as i did http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/jon.html

Monica said...

Really nice post and comments. I have just finished reading ADWD and I am really glad to read that, just like me, most people think that Jon is not dead. I too thought about Melisandre's powers and the fact that the knife wounds were not fatal but as some before me have said I put most of my faith in the prologue. Why tell us that in Jon "the gift was strong" if he never ends up using it? I don't remember ever learning something so important about a character and then have him die without a segue. Moreover, Varamyr has died nine times in the prologue. Not to mention the fact that I too am more and more convinced that Jon is half a Targaryen and he is one of the heads of the dragon. Sure, he can burn but his strong gift will allow him to take control of one of the dragons. Anyway, thanks for having given us such a place to discuss this clearly thorny issue. If he really is dead, GRR Martin should hire bodyguards. Ned and Robb's death would be nothing compared to Jon's.

Anonymous said...

I believe that if jon snow is the son of rhaegar and lyanna he can't be dead, because the name of the series is a song of ice and fire, and he is a descendent of ice (Starks=Kings of winter)and fire (Targaryens=dragons) so he must be THE central character.

Anonymous said...

I believe that if jon snow is the son of rhaegar and lyanna he can't be dead, because the name of the series is a song of ice and fire, and he is a descendent of ice (Starks=Kings of winter)and fire (Targaryens=dragons) so he must be THE central character.

Daniel Kirk said...

this is a great discussion. just wanted to say that I am almost positive that baby prince aegon is going to wind up being a pawn of varys in the end and I don't think he'll be one of the dragons.
I think martin laid it on pretty thick with the black dragon going to dany, the white one going to jon, and the green one is going to go to tyrion because Lannisters have green eyes. It's what them mofos are known for. there's a reason he's stayed alive this long and is about to meet the dragons. and yes, I think tyrion is a targaryen, or possibly jaime, haven't quite decided that yet but definitely one of them is a head of the dragon I promise you. and no jon snow is not dead. never.

Daniel Kirk said...

this is a great discussion. just wanted to say that I am almost positive that baby prince aegon is going to wind up being a pawn of varys in the end and I don't think he'll be one of the dragons.
I think martin laid it on pretty thick with the black dragon going to dany, the white one going to jon, and the green one is going to go to tyrion because Lannisters have green eyes. It's what them mofos are known for. there's a reason he's stayed alive this long and is about to meet the dragons. and yes, I think tyrion is a targaryen, or possibly jaime, haven't quite decided that yet but definitely one of them is a head of the dragon I promise you. and no jon snow is not dead. never.

Anonymous said...

What is wrong with you people??? He was stabbed with a KNIFE!!! He is dead! Please let his loved ones grieve and move on, without you giving them false hope!!!

bastard said...

Ok. I didn't read all of the replies. Sorry. That said...

The Red Priest intervention brought back Beric Dondarrion and was transferred? to Catelyn Stark. Possible intervention for Jon? Only if Melisandre is close by.

Cold Hands (Benjen Stark) has been turned by the Others but somehow not lost his mind. Possible resurrection for Jon?

We know Jon has Stark blood. In addition, the Old Gods seem to have some interesting, not much seen powers, including extending life drastically beyond its limits, shifting souls, etc...bear in mind that the Old Gods take oaths pretty seriously. Catelyn was gifted bread and salt at the Twins, thus a violation of guest right was incurred by her death. Jon has had oaths sworn to him by all of the Night's Watch, many of them before the Heart Tree. I can't help thinking that the betrayal in this case - a clear oath, in the North...might justify an Old Gods-style resurrection. Jon is seen by Melisandre as embracing the cold of the Old Gods, Azor Ahai's enemies. And the power is strong in him...


As for Bran and dragons...imagine a crippled boy and a barren girl becoming dragon kings. Nuf said.

bastard said...

Ok. I didn't read all of the replies. Sorry. That said...

The Red Priest intervention brought back Beric Dondarrion and was transferred? to Catelyn Stark. Possible intervention for Jon? Only if Melisandre is close by.

Cold Hands (Benjen Stark) has been turned by the Others but somehow not lost his mind. Possible resurrection for Jon?

We know Jon has Stark blood. In addition, the Old Gods seem to have some interesting, not much seen powers, including extending life drastically beyond its limits, shifting souls, etc...bear in mind that the Old Gods take oaths pretty seriously. Catelyn was gifted bread and salt at the Twins, thus a violation of guest right was incurred by her death. Jon has had oaths sworn to him by all of the Night's Watch, many of them before the Heart Tree. I can't help thinking that the betrayal in this case - a clear oath, in the North...might justify an Old Gods-style resurrection. Jon is seen by Melisandre as embracing the cold of the Old Gods, Azor Ahai's enemies. And the power is strong in him...


As for Bran and dragons...imagine a crippled boy and a barren girl becoming dragon kings. Nuf said.

bastard said...

In regard to WHY Jon Snow is stabbed...the Warg theory is weak, only weak (physically/mentally) have been proven able to be "warged." If nobody recalls, Jon sent away Satin, Sam, and all of his loyal Night's Watch retainers. They are all captaining up different Night's Watch bastion towers. Now, the people left are largely Lannister recruits. Cersei sent a group to the wall with orders to kill Snow or disrupt the watch. Janos Slynt is dead, but the men with him aren't. At least one of the people surrounding him was one of the Lannister recruits. Bowen Marsh is notoriously uncomfortable with Jon's decisions regarding the wildlings, and Patrek of King's Mountain hates giants, plus is a Queen's Man (he killed a fleeing giant in front of the Wall). Between the Queen's Men and the Lannister recruits, it wouldn't take much for a mutiny to happen. Killing the giant is an obvious step toward shattering his power, and as far as the Queen is concerned, so is capturing Val. So killing the giant and taking the girl is in line with a mutiny's objectives in taking Jon's power.

It comes, then, to whether a bunch of drunken (hopefully not poisoned) wildlings can kill a bunch of pussy Queen's knights and a few traitorous black brothers.

TheRabbitPrince said...

http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/jon.html

The above is a long and persuasive article (citing the books consistently as evidence) that -in my opinion- proves definitively Jon Snow is in fact the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. This is really beyond debate to any apt readers who have paid attention to the multitude of hints GRRM has dropped.

Rhaegar walks past his WIFE and crows Lyanna Stark, the Queen of Love and Beauty at a tourney. That's not exactly subtle people.

When Ned and his companions reach the Tower of Joy, Rhaegar has left the best of the Kingsguard behind to protect the towers obvious inhabitant, the pregnant Lyanna Stark. Ned's memories include his sister in a bed of blood (death by child birth) and "the promise" she made him swear - obviously to raise Jon as his son to protect him from Robert Baratheon, who would kill any Targaryen.

If you have any doubts about Jon's heritage, read the link I posted.

Now here is the main point:

When Rhaegar's second son is born, he states "the dragon has three heads, there must be a third." <That's a slight paraphrase) and in the same context Rhaegar says "his will be a song of ice and fire" or something very similar.

Stark=ICE
Targaryen=Fire

Jon Snow (aka Stark/Targaryen) = The Song of Ice and fire.

Thus the name of the entire 7 book long series is named after Jon Snow, or at least his symbol. (I realize ice and fire deals with the Others and dragons as well as other elements, but Jon is the pinnacle of the Ice/Fire motif.)

The main character of the entire series is not dead. I understand Martin has killed off beloved characters but Jon is the central piece of this epic series.

I will accept arguments that Jon may or may not be Azor Ahai - he may or may not die and be resurrected - etc - but it is beyond a shadow of a doubt that he will not be dead and gone. There is no reason to believe he will be a wolf, or inhabit Ghosts body either. No evidence exists to support that theory, Bran has that ability, Jon does not.

The article I posted does very thorough job of proving Jon's parentage - and it does a much better job than I can.

A final thought:

Theon is a scoundrel, traitor and thoroughly objectionable person, but his story is fascinating. I agree with the majority of posters who feel the same way. To write characters like him and Stannis off, suggests a stark (no pun intended) lack of understanding of character development, unreliable narration, and realism as elements in a work of fiction. Some of the previous posters expressed interest in only the simplest of characters - and disdain or boredom in regards to complex characters with depth. As the original blogger stated, these readers would be more at home with comic books or trite fantasy like "Dungeons and Dragons" novelizations.

I also note a surprisingly venomous outlook towards Dany, who is probably only (a very close) second to Jon as far as importance to the story - and each belligerent poster cites her "sluttyness" as their gripe. I can't imagine how you prudes managed to make it past the first book! Her sexual escapades would go undaunted if she were a man. A powerful, willful and sexually dominating female character is clearly too much for some children to handle, so put the book down and pick up a copy of "The Giving Tree." Wait! No.. that has some tragic realism in it, try a Dr. Seuss book.

Ilya said...

I can see how people who are used to happy endings can dislike Martin's approach. I think it's refreshing when things don't necessarily end happily, but it's impossible to say that readers don't get attached to characters and hate for their favorites to die. In the end, Martin knows that, and realizes he can't have a "good enough" ending if he kills a bunch of favorites. He's too good a writer for that.

Most of the prior deaths have not been just for the sake of dying. They've always had some purpose. E.g. Ned's death set off the whole war.

I feel pretty comfortable saying Jon Snow isn't dead. That's not necessarily the same thing as saying he's alive, but he's not done. There are too many unanswered questions surrounding Jon - questions that would have to be answered for the whole story to have been satisfying. The obvious question is about his mother. I'll admit, reading this thread was the first time I've even considered him being the child of Lyanna and Rhaegar. That has possibilities, but it's still a huge question. We saw a preview of it in Book 3 when Edric Dayne told Arya that Jon's mother was some common woman at Starfall. Seems pretty pathetic. If Ned Stark had been in love with Ashara Dayne, why would he have knocked up her handmaid or whoever Wyla was? Lyanna as the mother seems like a strong possibility. We've heard a lot about Arya reminding people of Lyanna, and Arya and Jon are the only ones of Ned's kids that look like Ned. Not saying I have answers, but the sole fact that this question exists suggests that Jon will still be alive to figure them out.

Other random questions off the top of my head that I can't imagine being left unaswered:
1) What happened to Benjen Stark?
2) What happened to Osha and Rickon? Weren't they headed to White Harbor? (presumably we'll figure out through Davos)
3) What's the deal with the crannogmen? We've gotten to know Jojen and Meera, but not much about the relationship between Howland Reed and Ned Stark, and why it was so important.
4) What happened to Tysha?
5) What's the deal with Darkstar?
6) How will Cersei die? I say Jamie. "Valonqar" means little brother, and Jamie is younger than Cersei.

One more thing about viewpoints and deaths...I can think of only one character that actually died in her own viewpoint chapter: Catelyn, but that didn't last. Ned died in an Arya chapter. Arys Oakheart died in an Arianne chapter. Quentyn died in a Barristan Selmy chapter. Other viewpoint characters have had fake/uncertain deaths (Bran, Arya, Davos, Dany, Asha, Theon). It seems like prologues and epilogues are MADE for the random viewpoint person to die. I can only think of the prologue with Chett that the viewpoint in prologue/epilogue character didn't die, but he died later when we see him as a wight. Pate in book 4 appears at the end of book 4, even though we thought he died at the beginning, but we don't know anything about that yet.

I guess that long-winded response was all to simply say...No, Jon Snow isn't dead.

Anonymous said...

Just read this chapter today and was like WTF, Snow also!?

But, you make a good argument. I wouldn't be surprised if he is dead - the whole nihilistic vision and all - but Martin did leave himself an out.

Nice post.

gazevans said...

Food for thought:

Beric Dondarrion passed his essence into Catelyn Stark and is now apparently finally dead. I think Catelyn reanimated Brienne after she was hanged and sent the Maid to capture Jaime who is having strange and compassionate feelings towards her.

The fact that Ned so fiercely defended the identity of Jon's mother suggests that the 'Jon-as-Rhaegar's-son theory has some credence to it...why protect a common maid? He's protecting Jon with his silence.

Another interesting thing to add to what someone said about Tyrion being the third dragon due to being a Targaryen: he has white hair (please try to put, the admittedly brilliant, Peter Dinklage out of your minds) and it was revealed in the last book that the Mad King had a thing for Tywin's wife...maybe that's another reason that Tyrion was despised by his father? That would make him a crippled, bastard, broken thing...

I think the prophesy points to Dany. Remember she was warned about the "false dragon" - Aegon?

Lastly: JON CAN'T BE DEAD. :'-(

Anonymous said...

I will say after reading some of the ideas and my own theories supported here, I do not believe Jon is dead.

I will respond to the Dany issue. I personally cannot stand her character. It has nothing to do with her sexual escapade; it has everything to do with her sense of self-importance and perception that she is great when she has done really nothing but mother dragons and gain supporters. I am tired of every single chapter having some sort of, be careful I am the the blood of the dragon. It is like a little kid on a playground with a rich daddy threatening someone or a kid with a big brother. It sounds absolutely ridiculous, and her chapters are boring to me. She is the one character I want to die, or just stay in the east and never make it to Westeros.

I don't like Theon, but I do like his character if that makes sense; he is interesting.

J. Lyon Layden said...

To TheRabbitePrince:
Great points and thank you for the article! I’ll respond to the Theon comments:

“Theon is a scoundrel,”
Ok I can see this. But is scoundrel always a bad thing? Han Solo was a scoundrel, according to Princess Leia…
“ …traitor…”
Was he really? Choosing between your family and your best friend would be a really tough thing, and did he really have a choice? If he had escaped Pyke to go tell Robb and rejoin, would he have been persued?

“… and thoroughly objectionable person,”
I guess I can see this…he makes some really bad choices, does immoral things (like we all do in life), has a severe inferiority complex and need to prove himself from the beginning, and he DID have a part in killing two innocent children. But why is it that many readers end up actually LIKING Jaimie Lannister, who does worse things for lesser reasons.
Talking to some friends in person about the TV series, I have heard more people say they dislike him because he “wants to fuck everything that moves.” What gets me is that these are mostly MEN say this.
Wanting to fuck everything that moves might be why I liked him to begin with, even though he was a cruel douchebag in a lot of ways. Tyrion is a lothario too, but everyone loves him…as well as Robert. To me it just shows that he doesn’t deny his very nature as most men do.
Or maybe I have just always loved pirates and Vikings. I would prolly not like Theon if I met him in real life, I just seem to tend to like scoundrels in fiction.
Totally agree with you about Dany…

To anonymous:
What sexual escapade? Dany is less sexually experienced than most American highschoolers of today, and she came of age as a Dothraki, which is a far less sexually repressed society than prudish Ameica or Westeros.
I can see why her self-importance could bother you, though. To me it makes sense though, because if she has the foresight to know that petrified eggs can hatch and that she can’t burn, and has the insight to know what exact ritual will make the dragons hatchwithout ever having read about it, then she must have some magical intuition or “knowing.” This could easily make her confident of her future, and she is still very young and finally breaking through the insecurity that her brother instilled in her. Going from slavery and oppression to being the most powerful and visionary person that you have known could make anyone a little high strung.
I find the Dany chapters less interesting than some, but I like the exoticism of the locales. It’s an interesting juxtaposition to Westeros.

Mikee Diaz said...

Jon Snow could be dead or Not.

Dead, because he stab by his men for DESERTION. A MAN OF THE NIGHT'S WATCH SHOULD NEVER JOINED THE WAR BETWEEN THE KINGS.

Not Dead, because Lady Melisandre could still heal him, or resurrect if he dies like what other red priest.

---

The Men of the Night Watch was crying and screaming "for the watch" while stabbing him.
They loved him, but it is their duty to kill him. not because of the wildlings, but for JOINING THE WAR OF KINGS.

Anonymous said...

Jon is the only main character on the wall apart from melisandre. If he is dead then the story at the wall cannot really be told very well. Daenarys is also going to definitely be the one who claims the iron throne and defends westeros against the others. She has already got the support of lannister through tyrion, dorne and the tully's thoug brynden tully.

Linds Lou said...

It is typical for people of the Dark Ages to pass a high-born child off as the handmaid's child to keep them safe. I think that is what happen with Jon Snow. And Eddard is the one who knew, and kept the secret of Jon being his sister's child with the Targarian prince.

I am emotionally invested in Jon Snow, Ayra, Bran, Rikon, and Sam.

I've never liked Lady Stark because of her hatred for Jon since. All the tender loving care she showed her children before leaving Winterfell (and abandoning the younger ones to fate) couldnt reconsile that element of her character with any good she could do for Rob or Sanza or Ayra or Bran or Rikon. She should have stayed dead like King Robert&Joffrey&Tywin; except that GRRM uses her to move Jamie and Brienne's stories forward.

I happen to adore the both of them; Brianne and Jamie the Lion.

I'd rather have seen Danny's psycho brother Viserys(SP)risurected instead of Katelyn Tully Stark.

Kevin Minch said...

Someone I know suggested that Jon Snow will jump into the Giant either to save himself or to live in the Giant because his body is dying.

I hope Jon is not dead at all but the giant angle would be more interesting than him becoming "Ghost".

Han said...

I agree with the last comment re: Catelyn Stark and her irrational hatred of Jon. Despite her doing some decent things I could never warm to her because of the way she treated Jon, she didn't just hate him she refused to trust him even though he never behaved anything less than honourably. When Rob wanted to name Jon as his heir Catelyn Stark went as far as to suggest some distant obscure cousin rather than Jon. I hope she's made to acknowledge just how badly she has wronged Jon.

Anyway, going back to the question I believe Jon is definitely alive. When GRRM kills off a character he doesn't leave doubt (Ned - beheading, Rob - sword through the heart, Tywin Lannister etc). With Jon there's serious doubt and where there's doubt there's hope! Plus Jon doesn't die in the chapter, he gets stabbed yes but he's still alive when the chapter ends.

Plus Jon is definitely Azor Ahai (Mellisandre asking for news of azor in the flames and only seeing Jon, there's only one conclusion to that). Jon is the blue rose growing in a wall of ice and filling the air with sweetness (who else could that be?)

After all the build up to Jon's true parentage, it would be a poor poor showing for Jon to be killed off before it's resolved (I also think Jon is the true born son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark).

No, Jon, Dany (used to be a fan but going off her) and Tyrion are going to be there all the way to the end. They're the 3 main characters (although how a hideous looking dwarf with a price on his head and huge mouth has managed to survive this long is anybody's guess!!)

Jon is the prince that was promised. His is the Song of Ice and Fire.

Han

Anonymous said...

Martin is weaving a series of seemingly-unrelated story lines into a tapestry. Might be obvious, but leads to my next point: Does Jon Snow's death move the overall story line forward? Martin's invested quite a bit of effort in Jon Snow, so I tend to doubt he's just led us down a blind alley. Jon's thread in this tapestry will probably continue in some form. How? I'm not sure even GRRM knows for sure until he sends off the final manuscript to the publisher.

BTW, interesting observations about Jon being a member of "Team T". However, I'm skeptical due to the arm burning incident.

drangedinaz said...

Part 1 of 2 (comment too long to post fully)

At first I was certain that Jon was Robert's son becuase of his dark hair....remember this is the secret that Ned discovered about all of Robert's bastards and why he realized Joffrey was not legitimate. The fact that he burned his hand using fire to kill the Other who attacked Lord Barristan at the Wall would seem to confirm this. If he was the son of Rhaegar he would have been able to handle the fire AND as a Stark he should have been able to handle the Ice. But everyone's arguments regarding him being the son of Rhaegar are very convincing and in the end, it probably doesn't matter. Jon, I think, is one of the final three. He is the one that will bond with the white dragon. So, either way, I think the evidence shows that Jon Snow is the "Ice" of the series' title. Of course, Danerys is the "Fire" of the series' title, and will be the Black dragon's rider. Aegon was brought in far too late and HAS to be a red herring. He's Varys tool and he might be Targaryen but he is no Dragon tamer. He will occupy Danerys attention for part of the next book UNTIL such time as she makes it to Westeros and meets Jon. Danerys' story has all been one of her becoming a queen and learning all the lessons of a queen while in exile, so that her Westoros subjects don't have to suffer while she is learning those lessons and so that when she returns she will seem like a very good, fourth party option (between the Starks, the Lannisters, and the Baratheons). As for the third dragon rider, I don't believe it is Bran. I actually believe that Tyrion is the third dragon rider.

drangedinaz said...

Part 2 of 2 (cannot fully post all of comment in one)

Tyrion might be the result of Aerys and Tywin's wife, however there's no evidence. Tyrion is one of my favorite characters, so am biased. GRRM has a soft spot in his heart for the weak but noble, the undeserving ill, the unfairly disadvantaged, etc. I am willing to predict that Tyrion will be the Green dragon rider AND he will actually win the true love of Sansa Stark who will realize that he is the only grown man to deal with her honestly and to treat her like a Lady. Arya will find that all her revenge will have to take a back seat to the fight against the Others. This will be the final test for every major character who remains alive. The core idea of infighting groups to make common cause against a larger, more dangerous enemy is an almost archetypal setup (I digress). The entire series depends on the ability of all these fighting, disparate families to be able to set aside their differences and face the Others in the end. I would make sure that the major families involved in the fight for the throne have a seat at the negotiating table. For any real alliance and peace to occur you MUST have a Baratheon, a Lannister, a Stark and a Targaryen. For the Baratheon's you have Stannis. He was mistakenly thought to be the chosen of Melisandre's Red God....this is a misinterpretation by Melisandre. She will realize this and so will Stannis. In the end, if Stannis lives that long, he will support Jon as the proper heir of House Baratheon. If not, there is a really off-chance that Gendry (Arya's secret crush and Robert's bastard son) will fill the role of representing House Baratheon. In that case odds are Stannis will have recognized Gendry as Robert's heir but Stannis will have to die shortly thereafter (alive he would never let anyone but a Baratheon claim the Kingship but Gendry is a more sensible fellow). Regardless, Gendry will not be a dragon rider and Jon will. Daenerys is the representative for House Targaryen. Because she has lived the majority of her life overseas, she will need people who have loyalty within Westeros. Jon is perfect for providing that for the North and Tyrion for the South. In any case, there is romance in the end between Jon and Danerys-they will be the King and Queen of Westeros, perhaps the entire known world. (It is also possible that Jon will be King of the North, Tyrion King of the South and Danerys to rule them both as the High Queen, so no romance) With this couple (Jon and Danerys) we would have Baratheon (possibly thru Jon if my guess is correct), Stark and Targaryen. If not Baratheon through Jon, then there will be a romance between Arya and Gendry, sealing the alliance of Baratheons and Starks, effectively eliminating the need for Baratheon to be more than a supporting line. The only thing missing is House Lannister and the only Lannister worthy of riding a dragon (because even though he is small in stature he has balls the size of Mt. Olympus) is Tyrion. He is the "glue", so to speak, in the alliance. I believe he will be the Green dragon rider. Some have mentioned on this site that he might be the result of Aerys and Tywin's wife, however I havent seen a single bit of evidence to support this claim. If you have any, for the love of all that's holy, share it with us!? Moreover, I see Jaimie Lannister having an "awakening" of a sort in his journey with Brienne of Tarth. Like Stannis, if he lives long enough, I think we will see Jamie support Tyrion as the head of House Lannister. If not, he'll die before he gets the chance to face such a difficult decision. You may ask why not Aegon for House Targaryen? For one reason...he was brought into the story far too late AND I think the ONLY reason he was brought in was to serve as Tyrion's introduction to Danerys.

Ramona said...

As to the letter from Ramsay: it's already been safely concluded that Stannis is most likely not dead, because of the situation with Theon and Jeyne. He probably does have Mance, though.
Its authenticity is called into question because it doesn't have an official seal, just a smear of wax. Remember the growing animosity between Roose Bolton and his son? It seems likely that Ramsay didn't use his father's seal because for whatever reason he didn't have access to it. His fury at his father could explain his rantings to the hated "Bastard" Jon Snow.

About Jon being a Targaryen: I don't think so!!! They all seem to have silver-gold hair and purple eyes; it takes over the way the Baratheon dark hair does to all their offspring. Jon Snow only looks like a Stark. that doesn't mean he isn't Azor Ahai or whatever (Stannis supposedly is, and he's not a Targaryen) but I really don't think he is Rhaegar's son.

Ramona said...

As to the letter from Ramsay: it's already been safely concluded that Stannis is most likely not dead, because of the situation with Theon and Jeyne. He probably does have Mance, though.
Its authenticity is called into question because it doesn't have an official seal, just a smear of wax. Remember the growing animosity between Roose Bolton and his son? It seems likely that Ramsay didn't use his father's seal because for whatever reason he didn't have access to it. His fury at his father could explain his rantings to the hated "Bastard" Jon Snow.

About Jon being a Targaryen: I don't think so!!! They all seem to have silver-gold hair and purple eyes; it takes over the way the Baratheon dark hair does to all their offspring. Jon Snow only looks like a Stark. that doesn't mean he isn't Azor Ahai or whatever (Stannis supposedly is, and he's not a Targaryen) but I really don't think he is Rhaegar's son.

Anonymous said...

"I have reasons to beleive that Jon is in fact the son of Lianna Stark and King Rhaegar, making him, by fact a Targayen by name has well has a Stark, you cant kill such a character in this fashion, it would be a total waste of time.

Just imagine the potential of such a character, who's a skinchanger and has natural affinity with dragons...nah, I dont buy his death, and I do not buy Stannis's death either, where would be Theon and Jeyne if not with Stannis's host?!

George is playing with our nerves, cause we all know the possibility is there, and we know it for a fact all because of the red wedding...but people will also recall, that the author actually killed de facto Robb in this chapter, he did'nt leave it to interpretation...so there it is, my own two cent on the matter...

And if he is trully dead...well, I might end up ranting like a mad dog."

Good point... i would just like to replace "mad dog" with DIRE WOLF :)

Anonymous said...

I don't have anything new to add to this discussion, but I do want to say that I doubt he's dead. He's the single most interesting character in the book, and pretty much all of Martin's characters are interesting. Plus, he already offed Ned AND Robb, causing me to go through all the steps of grief in 60 seconds (seriously, I nearly cried; it was sad) so if he kills Jon I will throw SUCH a hissy fit.

Anonymous said...

I don't think it will be fitting for Jon to die without knowing his parentage....just saying

Anonymous said...

personally, i love song of ice and fire .It irks me as well when my favourite character gets killed off but i am also a fan of stephen king and that guy kills off most of his main character in every book .lol in any case it is a fairy tale that the handsome and the good live forever.My one problem with the series is ,it seems to me that the lannister has alot of cousin and so on and so on.while the stark being an old family who can trace their lineage right back to the age of heroes about what? 10000 years ago seem to have about 0 dependable distantly related cousin(not counting those weasel like karstark),which seem weird to me because the math doesn't add up.

mightygc said...

Stannis was infuriating in 3 of the first 4 books... you start out with disappointment when he doesnt rally to the Stark banner, and his not taking any of Davos' counsel easy and accepting it from practically everyone else, but getting to the Wall was the best thing he could have done and the beginning signs of friendship between him and Jon Snow in the form of respect you really start to like the guy. His wife the queen however needs to be raped by wun wun.... in the ace... Melisandre while a little extreme in her faith I am rooting for... she uses alot of glamour and I really think she needs to work on her vision interpretation skills. And wth is wrong with these Starks/Snow?! DONT LOCK UP YOUR WOLVES!!! I really hope Jon isnt dead but if he is I wont be surprised. My intuition is screaming Melisandre will give him the last kiss of Rh'lorr and the god of light will not be done with him. My hope he remains the Jon he was and Ayra (after learning some assassin skills) gets her ass to Jon as soon as possible and catches any future plots

mightygc said...

Theon and Jeyne were with Stannis not missing if he routed Stannis he would have them both most likely (Jon doesnt know that though) He knows his sister is out there (alone for all he knows) and that Mance Rayder is too valuable to let die. We havent seen the last of Jon question is will he still be the same?

mightygc said...

I didnt like him for a while, but after he made common cause with Jon and the respect he showed for Jon during Janos Stynt's execution (EXCELLENT CHAPTER) He kind of earned mine back. That and taking Jon's counsel about the mountain tribes gave me some hope. If he is dead (I dont think he is) the Bolton's would have Jeyne and Theon. I think it was a ruse to try and get Jeyne back from Jon (Mance probably told him thats who sent him) Little Flaying would have gotten it out of him (look what it did to Theon)

Peregrin said...

D: The endings of all the books leave me so depressed! But it's because of this grim reality that I can't stop turning the page to see what really happens.

It's the same thing that happened with Davos (who was apparently killed in the 4th book, but really wasn't in the 5th), or Arya (who is apparently blinded, but it turns out to be temporary), or Bran and Rickon (who appear to be killed by Theon, but they're really wandering around. Granted, this time, the act is viewed from the first person, but unless the character's viewpoint is anything other than "that was the last thing he EVER saw, and was dead, and never came back to life, and that's it, he's dead" you really can't be sure of anything in these books, even if others state that the character is dead, or even the character thinks he is dead himself!

Actually, at this point in time, I've been fooled so many times in this case, that the ultimate twist would simply be to find out that Jon really is dead, and nothing interesting happens in that regard.

In any case, we can probably expect that we will not see any "Jon" chapters in at least one full book after this, which is sad.

Anonymous said...

Can some one send this blog to GRRM....?

DeadNed said...

My main criticism of your logic is aimed at your claim that people can easily survive stab wounds. On the surface that seems perfectly logical and your supporting evidence regarding your friends makes it more acceptable. However, you're willingly taking the situation out of context to make your argument. Jon Snow was stabbed 4 times in the back by his own men. Sure he could heal, especially if they managed to miss any manjor arteries or organs. Then again, these men are trained fighters, defenders of the wall and some of the leading men of the Nights Watch. So, are they really likely to miss all major arteries and organs?
Whether they hit them or not, he could still be healed right? Sure, in a modern setting, he could be healed quite easily but he's stuck on the Wall, a cold, isolated location with limited medicine and in an age where modern medical techniques just don't exist. Put simply, his chances of survival are slim compared to your two friends.
Of course, he may be healed with magic, which could well solve that problem. I personally hope he is.
One last point. You littered your first argument with personal digs, taking potshots at Robert Jordan for not killing off major characters. I like Jordan's books and to be fair, many authors wont kill of major characters. Tolkien didn't and he is very highly regarded isn't he?

Gregory Sloan said...

Dude you need to move to a better neighbourhood if everyone you know is being stabbed.

Gregory Sloan said...

Dude, you need to move, way to many stabbings in your neck of the woods.

Anonymous said...

Ok. My first ever so here goes. GRRM hate him and love him. Totally pissed when he killed Ned but had to be to get it all going. The Red Wedding will go down as a classic popular expression like "jumping the shark" to describe an event that completely takes away the reader's safety net. There are no sacred cows in this house and that's why we don't know if Jon is dead! Jon is schrodinger's cat! Hows that for a mummer's farce. And oh by the way to the guy that trashed Martin as a poor writer...you try writing over a million words without repeating an idiom. In fact I am constantly amazed at all the different and contexualy interesting ways he chooses to describe setting and dialogue. I almost pissed myself laughing when Asha Greyjoy roasted Left-hand Lucus. And what about the metaphor of two purses when describing how Tyrion could never compete with Cercie's second purse that was inexhaustible? So Mr. Martin, if you're reading this...get back to work damn it! We want the next book!

Daniel Sasseville said...

Several points ide liek to make here. Not many have brought them up. When Jon was watchng the widlings marching into camp and the skinchanger marched by Ghost totally freaked and wasnt his usual self and the skinchanger was described as being hatefull towards Jon. Later Jon is told that Ghost tried to bite one of the men and then later in jon's room Ghost isnt his usual self. Jon thinks it may have to do with the bore but I think it may have to do with the skinchanger. My first thought after the stabbing was that the skinchanger took control and tried to kill Jon for whatever motive.

J. Lyon Layden said...

Well some of those maesters and red priest(esses) are better than modern doctors, but you've got a good point. I'm not sure that Night's Watch men would know where major organs or arteries in the back are as Jon didn't seem to think much of the training he got at Castle Black. However, you're right- Night's Watch Men MIGHT have more knowledge than modern street thugs. The trick is the MIGHT, though... we've hashed this out pretty good on this blog, and I think it's safe to say that we can't be 100% sure either way until we read the next book. I'm betting that he survived the attack, and especially after reading all the evidence we've compiled here I think it's pretty certain that he either lives or is resurrected as Azur Ahai...but there's always still a chance with Martin and I wouldn't have it any other way.

J. Lyon Layden said...

Responding to Tolkien killing off characters:
Boromir was one of my faves, even though he did the betraying- I just dig barbarian types.
And have you read "The Children of Hurin?" Awesome dark fantasy and trajedy by Tolkien.
However, I am not saying that all books should kill of major characters. But the fantasy genres needs NEW ways of doing things DIFFERENT than what Tolkien did. How did Jordan further the fantasy genre past Tolkien? Past Dungeons and Dragons? By calling goblins "Ghob'lin" and Kobolds "Kho'bald?"
Jordan was creative, and a good writer- I actually used to dig the hell out of his Conan novels when I was a teenager...and I don't like bashing a guy who's passed and who brought a lot of attention to the genre I love. But I don't think he was all that much better than Paolini....about the same level as Goodkind, Pratchet, or Brooks...and I think it has to be said that he doesn't approach the mark on fantasy literature that Tolkien, Howard, or even Lieber have left, and that ultimately I'm sorry to say he won't have left as high a mark as Martin or Gaimon or even Rowling will.

J. Lyon Layden said...

About the over-use of "Mummer's Farce."
To say Martin's not a genius because of the re-use of a phrase is like saying Hendrix isn't a genius because of the repetition of one guitar lick.
You could find favorite metaphors in Shakespeare too if you look hard enough.
Martin isn't a genius because of his writing style, he's a genius because of his story creating, world-building, and plot manufacturing. Robert E. Howard wasn't a great writer technically, but his stories absolutely trump 99% of modern fantasy because of their creativity, originality, universal connection, foresight, and pure literary energy!!

Anonymous said...

It seems to me, that jon will be injured, survive, and die later, it has always seemed so because jon takes after eddard.

monkey momma said...

I also cannot bear to think of Snow as being dead. So therefore, I assume he's not until I actually read it for myself in a future book. I'm totally counting on his being the ICE in this song of Ice and Fire.

And poor Daenrys - how can ya'll say she's boring after her last chapter??? For god's sake, she rides off on the most badass dragon ever, and she LIVES. She's taking things to a whole new level at the end of book 5, and I'm so excited to see her ditch Mereen and finally head for Westeros.

Thanks for a great thread!

Anonymous said...

The only thing I didn't see someone point out, was if all the Rhaegar and Lyanna Stuff is true (which I thought as well; lots of little hints), Jon can't take his rightful place as potential king or whatever the hell is going to happen to him when he is in the Night's Watch.

Jon Snow died, but only temporarily. He has to die, because as we all know, Your watch ends with your death. That way he can be free to do other stuff but still never really break his vows... Or I'm wrong.

Are there really people who like the Kingslayer? He's such a dumb ass. He's like a high school jock who blows out a knee and now he's finally realizing what a piece of shit he's been. I have no empathy for him at all, nor do I find him compelling in anyway.

I actually do feel some sympathy for Theon despite his past dickishness. It's hard to read the descriptions of his flaying and not feel bad for him. Also the fact that he always wanted to be a Stark, but knew he never really could.

I understand defending the "Mummer's Farce" (although that drove me insane as well), but there is a lot of laziness and terrible writing in his books as well, especially 4 and 5. If you look at Dany's wedding night and the nights before her wedding. She uses the exact same expression. Something about wanting the person sleeping next to her to get up and talk to her or bang her or whatever else.

The first three books were really solid and felt like it was headed somewhere interesting. Reading the two last books, I kind of feel like he doesn't know where he's going with this. So he uses all this made up history and descriptions of meals to fill up pages.

And there are so many things where it's like:
"Okay, we're going to this place...oh no! Pirates! or slavers! or Bandits! Or some other kind of enemy. They've captured us, and now we're going to go with them for a while! TWIST!" Tyion's story drove me crazy.

I like books that are deep and complex, and I'm still invested in this series, but it's called "A Song of Fire and Ice" not "The Neverending Story." And even that garbage had an ending. He's going to have to wrap this all up in two more books allegedly and he doesn't seem to be doing it. Just like I should wrap up this meandering post.

Kothel

Anonymous said...

Dude, the giant killed the knight because he was trying to 'steal' Val to make her his wife, and the giant was in his way. He hacked at the giant, and the giant retaliated. This is all pretty clear if you put it in the context of the previous scene in which that particular knight makes it clear he wants her, and Jon explains to the room that the only way she would accept marriage is to be taken according to the Wildling way. (In support of this, the screaming also came from the tower where Val is living, and Jon is initially worried that he's hearing her scream.)

I don't think Jon is dead either - how many times has Martin implied death without actually showing it, only to bring the character back in some way? - but the giant is not at all a main clue to this, and it would not be his only purpose in this scene.

The altercation between the giant and the knight served to create a chaotic scene in which Jon would be caught off guard and be desperately trying to keep the tensions between various factions at bay. Not only would he be easier to take unawares by inferior fighters, but the audience would be more surprised as well.

Anyway I'm late to the game here of course (just read the book), but disagree pretty strongly with your main point.

Anonymous said...

I also dont think Jon is dead, I think the reprocusions of his death would be astounding, the wildlings would slaughter the nights watch because Jon was provin himself to be a worthy commander. We all saw how quick those renowed wilding jumped up to go with him to Winterfell. Also he gave them shelter and fed them, they wont forget that. As for Stannis, I think the letter is fake. I think Roose Bolton wrote it to lure Jon out because I think Jon is Robbs heir. Robb named an heir to all his commanders before he died, Roose was in that tent and knows who the heir is, Greatjon and the other also know but they are locked up, Roose needs to kill the heir before the other lords of the north are released from the Freys.
Just my 2 cents.

Anonymous said...

first, I have to say its pretty awesome that when I type in "is jon" google automatically pulls up "is jon snow dead"

I made it through most of the comments until i felt compelled to write my own.

On the Dany hatin- I get it. She was a total twit in the last book. She locked up her dragons, had a girlie crush on a scoundrel, married a tool, and basically just whined and pandered.

I think it was all necessary to show her continuing transformation. Don't forget, at this point she can't really be older than 15, and she wasn't raised in a "proper" household like a proper princess. Meereen, and all it's bullshit is in the story as a means of her humanity, her youth and her failings. Its also there to explain that when the time comes, she is not going to be another Cerci. She has learned humility, and at the very end she finally has grasped what it means to be a Targarian, as illustrated by her successfully controlling Drogon.

Now, to my man Jon, there are too many options for him to be just plain dead an too much potential for it to wither away now. Rob's potential peaked, so did Catelyn and even poor Ned and worse for them, they had the wrong friends. Jon didn't distrust enough, maybe, be he is naturally suspicious.

Now Sansa on the other hand, when are they going to kill that dumb twit?

Anonymous said...

oh and i forgot a point, to those who pointed out that jon was burned and therefore couldn't be a Targarian, Viserys was burned. In fact, through out the series there are many references to Targarians who burned themselves alive trying to resurrect the dragons or be the dragons. Dany is special, even amongst her kin. Master Aemon goes on about it to Sam in Feast for Crows.

Anonymous said...

I think Jon Snow's next chapter will be a riot between wildlings and the Nights Watch. It will happen like a cocoon around him and he may not even mentioned Snow except that he is on the ground bleeding... but I guess the chapter would be titled The Wall or The Yard...

He could warg into snow... but he would get slaughtered if he joined any skirmish in the yard.

Could be that... George loves to have characters seem to die and then chapters later... they wake up in a strange place.

IMHO Melisandre is on Jon's side in any future he has. Although this brings up the question how would Stannis react to Jon being more powerful and deserving of the realm. Stannis as a character is unflinching.

If somehow Stannis has word that Mance was alive and learned of Jon and Melisandra's plan to look for "Arya" then he could have written the message as a ruse. To bolster his numbers for the upcoming battle. Or to have a force attack Winterfell while his army deals with the half army coming to meet them... Maybe. Knowing Jon Snow would never come without serious cause.

I guess we will see.

I'm loving these books, I find so many books and shows are so predictable and one dimensional. These are brilliant if not genius.

Anonymous said...

Sir Patrek ( BLEEDING STAR) + Bowen Marsh tears (SALT) + Jon' smoking wounds ( SMOKE) = AZOR AHAI REBORN!

Anonymous said...

so no one remembers the first page of dany's last chapter, "Her skin was pink & tender, & a pale milky fluid was leaking from her cracked palms, but her burns were healing" pg 929

this is in reference to the people saying that jon cant be a targaryen because his hand was burned

J. Lyon Layden said...

Absolutely! There's no reason to think that ALL Targaryans can't be burned. It seems to me that even the "true dragons" of Targaryan blood can be burned except in ritual or trance-like states. As the above poster points out- even Dany gets some surface burns.

Anonymous said...

I noticed a friendship forming between Jon and Tomrmund (the guy who always goes "Har!!" and talks about his member) in this book. Even so, right befor Jon's stabbing, they were making plans together since the arrival of the letter.. I think that Jon survives because Tormund and possibly his wildling sons and followers will stop the crows.. perhpas they will take Jon with them.. meaning Jon will have lost control of the Wall.. but all the better

Antares said...

All this talk about Jon Snow and Azor Ahai makes me think about Lightbringer, the sword that Stannis "allegedly" has or "doesn't" have. As far as I know there are also theories about lost nobles, but the closest theory about lost nobles that has to do with the Azor Ahai prophecy that mentions Lightbringer I think would be the one about the Dayne's. Let me Elaborate.

Arthur Dayne was called the sword of the morning, how's that for a Lightbringer teaser, and he carried what was considered the finest sword in all of Westeros, Dawn, probably even of greater make than Valyrian steel. Now couple that with the lost Dayne theory where most readers think Ashara Dayne who leapt from her tower is in fact, not dead, the Septa Lemore; who follows young Aegon "the likely" now. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Lemore (Ashara)'s role in this is to keep Lightbringer safe for the "Prince who was promised".

Recall back even further and you'll find that the last time THE sword of the morning, called Dawn, was mentioned was when Ned returned it to Ashara. Also fitting is the fact that this sword was in possession of the greatest knight to have lived in Westeros. The sword Dawn is described as having been forged from the steel found from a meteor, and has a glassy milk white look. Now matching that description is what Sam brought to attention about fire steel, easily translated to Valyrian steel, but just as easily referring to a sword made of meteor material. I for one think that if there's any metal that can burn without ever being affected by the heat, it may very well be made out of something that survived a journey down through the atmosphere.

This is where I think King's blood is important since Dawn has probably never been quenched by "King's" blood but rather been used in service of the King. It wouldn't surprise me should a princeling from Westeros be hurt by Dawn for once in the ensuing chaos and awaken something asleep in the blade. Furthermore, there are forums that speak of Dawn being of an intense white colour "alive with light", much the same way as when a metal is at it's highest temperature, a blinding white.

What does this all have to do with Azor Ahai and Jon Snow being alive? Well, if there is a way that this sword is somehow making it's way up to the Wall or if young Aegon were to storm Storm's End with it and die blade in hand, who better to wield a bastard sword than a bastard with possibly the blood of kings and the unshakeable Stark honor worthy of a knight? Maybe I'm putting too much stock in an artifact but, Stannis' sword has been made a center piece for his legitimacy many times, and if Jon needed legitimacy, wielding Lightbringer would turn a few heads for certain should he live. Of all the Azor Ahai candidates, I think only Jon would do justice for a sword so great. Someone with less martial prowess wielding the blade just seems a tad insulting to its legend, the Dayne's would agree.

How the sword will get to Jon or Jon to it, who knows? Mayhaps he'll finally get to it on his journey south, if he survives, while trying to find out about his mother and hence leading him back to Starfall where the sword may very well be, if not with Lemore(Ashara).

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Mark said...

Here is my new thought; Jon is Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark lawful son, Azor Ahai, and NOT dead.
He was taken by Ned as Ned promised his sister as she died from his birth, the Starks only went to war in the rebellion because Robert or John Aryn lied to them, or they fought for the honor of the betrothal between Lyanna and Robert.
I get this speculation from that Ned was to honorable to father a basted and to loving to fail a sister, we have not herd just what sickness Lyanna died from, and Daenryes was told Rhaeger loved Lyanna.
As to the Azor Ahai bit, Melisandre was most likely miss guided by R'ollo or possibly knew all along the Stannis wasn't Azor Ahai, but was shone him to be her path to Jon. I believe this all makes sense with what we have read and helps to answer Maester Admeon's questions.

My old thought was it only made sense for Jon to deid, he had to! WHY?? Um well, WINTER IS COMING! And also the Others, which once pushed the Starks clear out of the north and, are posed to move on the wall again if the Nights Watch and Free Folk go to war over the dead of Jon.
This would Mean that Prince Aegon is Azor Ahai as Admoen had lead me to believe when he said they were promised a prince. And Jon was Ned Stark's and Wylla son as Ned hints to when Robert asked who was Ned basted's mother was and Ned did reply "Wylla". I am betting that Jon is dead but, as i almost retched when was he was stabbed I'm hoping he lives.

Mark said...

Here is my new thought; Jon is Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark lawful son, Azor Ahai, and NOT dead.
He was taken by Ned as Ned promised his sister as she died from his birth, the Starks only went to war in the rebellion because Robert or John Aryn lied to them, or they fought for the honor of the betrothal between Lyanna and Robert.
I get this speculation from that Ned was to honorable to father a basted and to loving to fail a sister, we have not herd just what sickness Lyanna died from, and Daenryes was told Rhaeger loved Lyanna.
As to the Azor Ahai bit, Melisandre was most likely miss guided by R'ollo or possibly knew all along the Stannis wasn't Azor Ahai, but was shone him to be her path to Jon. I believe this all makes sense with what we have read and helps to answer Maester Admeon's questions.

My old thought was it only made sense for Jon to deid, he had to! WHY?? Um well, WINTER IS COMING! And also the Others, which once pushed the Starks clear out of the north and, are posed to move on the wall again if the Nights Watch and Free Folk go to war over the dead of Jon.
This would Mean that Prince Aegon is Azor Ahai as Admoen had lead me to believe when he said they were promised a prince. And Jon was Ned Stark's and Wylla son as Ned hints to when Robert asked who was Ned basted's mother was and Ned did reply "Wylla". I am betting that Jon is dead but, as i almost retched when was he was stabbed I'm hoping he lives.

Mark said...

Here is my new thought; Jon is Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark lawful son, Azor Ahai, and NOT dead.
He was taken by Ned as Ned promised his sister as she died from his birth, the Starks only went to war in the rebellion because Robert or John Aryn lied to them, or they fought for the honor of the betrothal between Lyanna and Robert.
I get this speculation from that Ned was to honorable to father a basted and to loving to fail a sister, we have not herd just what sickness Lyanna died from, and Daenryes was told Rhaeger loved Lyanna.
As to the Azor Ahai bit, Melisandre was most likely miss guided by R'ollo or possibly knew all along the Stannis wasn't Azor Ahai, but was shone him to be her path to Jon. I believe this all makes sense with what we have read and helps to answer Maester Admeon's questions.

My old thought was it only made sense for Jon to deid, he had to! WHY?? Um well, WINTER IS COMING! And also the Others, which once pushed the Starks clear out of the north and, are posed to move on the wall again if the Nights Watch and Free Folk go to war over the dead of Jon.
This would mean that Prince Aegon is Azor Ahai as Admoen had lead me to believe when he said they were promised a prince. And Jon was Ned Stark's and Wylla son as Ned hints to when Robert asked who was Ned basted's mother was and Ned did reply "Wylla". I am betting that Jon is dead but, as i almost retched when was he was stabbed I'm hoping he lives.

Anonymous said...

in defence of Mr. Goody twoshoes I must say Dany is prone to fantasy in that area, she got jealous of two pommels for crying out loud, and she did get pleasured by that one servant on the boat. that said she is clearly Azor Ahai " born amongst salt and sea" she's called Daenarys stormborn I thought that was a dead give-away.

J. Lyon Layden said...

Hey guys please remember that comments are moderated to keep this blog spam free. If you don't see your post immediately, just wait a few days...unless it is spam it WILL appear eventually. No need to write the same thing three times.

Anonymous said...

Don´t know if anyone mentioned it. But the Prologue made no sense for me while reading the whole book, till....yeah, the stabbing takes place. It was just to show that skinchangers can "survive" death. I think thats the biggest hint to Jon not beeing dead.

My guess is, like alot of people mentioned, he is the son of L+R and will somehow ("revived" by Melisandre or with the help from Borroq - who greeted him as "Brother", when he walked through the wall) take back human form and will ride Viserion!

Can´t wait for the next book, but i guess i´ll have to be patient.


just my thoughts

my name is reek, it rhymes with bleek! (gogo Theon!)

Kasek said...

Re: Lightbringer/Dawn sword theory. If Dawn represents Fire, then what about the sword Ice, which the Starks held for generations & was melted down & reforged into 2 new swords. Brienne of Tarth, whether she is alive or undead, carries Oathkeeper. What happened to the one Joff received on his wedding day? It must be kickin around King's Landing somewhere. You're right, Lightbringer is somewhere & obviously significant, so it seems that if R'Hollor has a sword & champion, the Other dark god whose name the red priests dare not speak may also have a sword. And I'm willing to bet this Other god isn't as bad as the red priests make him out to be. There is no way Jon is Azor Ahai, more likely he is the champion of the darkness/ice god.

Anonymous said...

God, it annoys me how everyone think Jon is Azor Ahai reborn, and how no one has made the connetcion of kings blood and dragon eggs! Here is my deal:

Jamie is Cerseis little brother, and the one who was fortuned to ruin everything and bla bla

I am very on board with the Lyanna, Rhaegar, Jon theory, but he is neither Azor Ahai, nor is he dead.

I am suprised how angry everyone are with Dany, but i agree to that the books are favouring here to much. Dany is obviously Azor Ahai reborn as she is born admidst salt and smoke (dragonstone) where as Jon is most likely born in Dorne in the tower of joy. (more like snakes and sand then salt and smoke) and then there is the dragons. And why no one has seemed to notice this is beyond me. Melisandre is going on about waking STONE DRAGONS awakened by KINGS BLOOD. When Daenerys hached her dragons she build a fire for her dead husband, and burned her STONE EGGS along with KHAL (witch we all know is just another word for king) DROGO, ABSORBING HIS BLOOD.

As for what happenes next i am groving fond of the whole wall-falling-dow-idea but it is abit suspicious. How would they tear the wall down? Why? Unless they find The Horn Of Joruma (is that how you spell it?) i can't see how the wall would fall. As for this three-headed-dragon stuff i agree with Jon on Viserion, Aegon on Rhaegal and Dany on Drogo but Jon will not marry Dany. I think Aegon and Dany will marry, but Aegon will have to wives (since Dany cannot bring forth child), Jon will either remain Lord Commander or be re-elected, Bran will be the last greenseer, and then either Rickon or Arya will have winterfell back. If Rickon has Winterfell i think Arya will be some sort of army-battle-war-command. Sansa will stay in the Vale (to scared to pop her head out) and Hizrandir will rule mereen. Either Asha, or Victorian will rule the Iron Islands, because Theon is (not dead) but to traumatised.

As for Cersei she dies. Seriously, that bitch needs to die.

There are certain things i would love to have clarifyed though.

What happenef to Tysha?

What is GRRM doing with this wolf-army that Nymeria is building?

I guess we all just have to wait and see to find out how this song ends.

Bera Dahl 19.08.12



Anonymous said...

From what I understand from Martin's writing is that he never gives the reader what they want. He hints at good triumphing over evil, but does it ever? Have you ever read anything in his books that has satisfied you 100%?? Has anything ever occured where you thought "yes I knew that was going to happen, i read it on a forum three years ago..."

I suspect that Jon's birth will always remain a bit of a mystery. It is implied he is Lyanna's son, either through her love of Rhaegar (which I actually doubt), or through Rhaegar's rape - which would be more fitting in Martin's universe. Plus Lyanna's rape would be more inclined to anger Robert into vengence. In addition, having read this blog I re-read the story of the cranogman going off to the joust in which Lyanna's sadness is palpable.

Saying that though, I don't believe Jon is dead in the conventional sense. He will have to leave his wounded body, but then I can't see him being stuck in Ghost forever either. How would Martin advance the narrative if he had to write wolf chapters for the next two books? Whether or not he is Azor Ahai, everything points to some sort of re-birth - maybe a Catelyn scenario with the red priestess. Yes he burnt his hand early on and everyone says this prohibits him from being a dragon tamer - but why? On re-birth the gods could grant him any power they wish.

Anyway I've read all posts here and I would LOVE LOVE LOVE for him to be Azor Ahai/ one of the three headed dragons, I'm probably reading into it a little too much, but would point out:-

1. When Jon is stabbed he can't pull his sword. "Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of it's scabbard". Why? At this point only Wick had slashed at him and "it had barely grazed his skin". Remember Longclaw isn't his sword, it's Mormont's. Is this foreshadowing the coming of a new sword for him (que Lightbringer please!);

2. His wound "smoked" in the "cold night air". Why would it "smoke in the cold night air" and not "the heat of his blood steamed into the cold etc";

3. He never feels the fourth knife. If Martin had wanted to definatively kill Jon off, he would have described the fourth stab. I don't believe there was actually a fourth stab. There was three. Three's symbolic here - three stabs, to be reborn as one of the three?

As an aside, I like the way he falls face first into the snow - he comes from Snow after all. Also when Dany visits the House of the Undying. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, "and filled the air with sweetness". Blue flowers symbolise Lyanna and the 'queen of love' (i.e Jon). The blue flower 'grew' - it's not withering and dying in the prophecy. Jon might die but alive or dead he is of some significance to Dany.

Also, what's the point in Martin creating a white dragon with red eyes (of the Old Gods) just like Ghost? OK I know there is no point to some of Martin's writing...but...

Rant over. He may be dead he may not, he may be reborn but Martin won't ever let us have our cake and eat it.

rusirious13 said...

About a year late but I've been busy!

Jon Snow is my favorite character and I just read his final chapter (though I was Googling something about him from the series and Google autofilled "Jon Snow Dead" so I kind of knew ahead of time).

I believe he'll be alive in the next book but I don't think he'll be a character of focus. Probably show up towards the end, in the darkest hour, to kick off a Dream of Spring.

Two things I'd like to point out (both come from DWD). In a Mellisandre chapter she says that she looks into the fires praying to see Azor Ahai (who she believes to be Stannis) and R'holler shows her only Jon Snow.

The second comes from one of Jon's chapters. He is atop the way with an army of strawmen trying to fight of wights. Many of these wights wear the black of the Watch and he recognizes several he slays with a glowing red sword.

These two events are either just red-herrings or foreshadowing (both of which are common GRRM features).

In any case, I don't think he's dead as following him was not necessarily crucial in the first book. The Stark bastard disappears to the Wall while the real events are happening the South. We couldn't caught upon the events of the Wall once Stannis arrived so I think Jon has a bigger role to play.

Just my two cents.

all caught up with no place to go said...

I'm surprised no one seems to be talking about Jon's reaction to the first cut -- his sluggish response to what is described as a very superficial wound strikes me as evidence of some kind of poison or other debilitating substance on the first knife, b/c I can't think of why else he'd be unable to move as he normally would (not even emotional shock seems credible). Thoughts?

And more broadly, I'm quite pissed about the stabbing, in large part because it's a shitty thing to make readers wait 5+ years to find out if a main character is truly dead or not. Even manipulative TV shows like Dallas never made fans endure that sort of stupidity. And if he is really dead, I have to say that I'm done with the series -- the vendetta against the Starks has reached ridiculous proportions by this point, no matter how strenuously one argues that Martin's just being "realistic" or "literary."

Radamanthes3 said...

I'm assuming here that Jon is the son of fire and ice, Targaryen and Stark.
So far he was raised in the Ice and lived all his life in the Ice. To reveal his fire side it would take a dramatic event, such as a death of some sort (his ice side)

In Melisande's fires he is the warrior of Light embracing fire, but he believes in the Old Gods, so his faith must also be swinged to embrace the Fire God, that can only happen with a ressurection.

To wake the dragon Melisande needs royal blood.

I think that Jon will come back in another form, what that would be I cannot tell for certain, but the marriage of Fire and Ice is in him and a transformation will take place, either physical or elsewise

Sérgio Ricardo Gentile said...

I believe that Jon Snow isn't dead, in fact, I believe that anyone who was stabbed was not Jon Snow. I will explain my theory: when he goes to talk to the queen, the Melisandre's ruby was shining, just as it was when she was with Rattleshirt. And how his wolf growled at him? I believe she did the same with Jon what she had done with Mance. Now, where is Jon Snow?

Sérgio Ricardo Gentile said...

I believe that Jon Snow isn't dead, in fact, I believe that anyone who was stabbed was not Jon Snow. I will explain my theory: when he goes to talk to the queen, the Melisandre's ruby was shining, just as it was when she was with Rattleshirt. And how his wolf growled at him? I believe she did the same with Jon what she had done with Mance. Now, where is Jon Snow?

Sérgio Ricardo Gentile said...

I believe that Jon Snow isn't dead, in fact, I believe that anyone who was stabbed was not Jon Snow. I will explain my theory: when he goes to talk to the queen, the Melisandre's ruby was shining, just as it was when she was with Rattleshirt. And how his wolf growled at him? I believe she did the same with Jon what she had done with Mance. Now, where is Jon Snow?

J. Lyon Layden said...

Wow I didn't think of that. You may just be right. Unless G.R.R is reading this, and then he might change it just because he doesn't want the surprise to be spoiled. Let's not talk too much about it haha!

J. Lyon Layden said...

Although....the dialogue and thought processes after the ruby glows and Ghost growls at Jon sure SEEM like Jon. And if Jon and Tormund are switched by a glamour, well Jon is doing a really good job of acting like Tormund and vice versa at the meeting in the shield hall.

Looking at the Wikipedia article on the next book, I noticed that martin has said that he will start off with the battle in the north and the battle at Slaver's Bay. However, none of the POV characters he has named for the book are at the wall. Melisandre is not named, nor Jon. I guess it COULD be told by Theon, though.

Anonymous said...

Just wanted everyone to know that the only person who could have known of Theon by the name Reek, and who knew that the wall had no idea of Stannis fate, knew of Jon helping King Stannis, and knew that Jon had wildings was the bravossi banker. If you recall the banker came to wall learned of everything, than travel past winterfell to meet with stannis where he meet reek a.k.a. Theon GreyJoy. He is the only person who could have sent the letter, and why would he do this? Because king stannis promised to pay the iron banks of bravossi all the money the iron throne owed the bravossi. Remember the Brovossi banker said he would only help stannis if he promised to pay the debt? He is the only person with all the knowledge of the wall, winterfell, stannis, and theon and could have possibly written the letter, that was a lie.
As for Jon Snow. I really hope he is not dead. It seems to me that the giant was attacked to make it look like he killed jon. but i really hope i am wrong. and am not sure.

J. Lyon Layden said...

Are you saying that the banker was the only one who could have written it or the only one besides Ramsay Bolton who could have written it? If Ramsay had captured Stannis without catching Theon somehow, couldn't he have learned about the wildlings and Jon's alliance with Stannis from Stannis's captured men, or am I missing something?

Jack Norgen said...

Don't forget how John Snows death relates to BOTH Robb and Old Bear. He was stabbed by his crew, like Bear, AND his wolf which was his shield and warning was not with him, as happened to Robb.
His death is far to similar to them, as well as too just minor for such a character. Even Theon's fake death had more build up and mystery. It felt more like George said screw it, and cut out the next 3 chapters about John to put in the next book. That was a chapter cliff hanger, no book cliff hanger. That was one chapter that we just didn't get the follow up too. Same with Kingslayer and his "lol 1 chapter cliff hanger lol" In this book. It's a decent one for John at least, but you know he's not dead. Unlike other characters, John's snow is just too ambiguious. Too many ways he could be saved from a giant, his other men who're like wtf, Healing Powers of the priest, the fact that betraying him was kinda pointless since he signed his death warrent just before it and knew it as he's joining the wildlings to attack. And he's the main character from the Wall, in a book where the majority of action is focused north of the wall, and other similar characters juts don't fit the profile. Theon's too cripple to be suspensful, Red Priestess is too prone to being killed, Stannis hasn't a chapter to his name. Rickton sure ain't becoming the Tarzan I expected 3 books ago. Yeah, he's not just alive, he's going to be in it alot, so you can't have spoilers about this.

Alex Anagnostopoulos said...

Gais
Stop calling Melisandre Missandei
BIG Difference
Melisandre is the red priestess who can give birth to shadows and see the future
Missandei is an 11yo slave girl that Dany frees, and uses as a scrive

Michael Lambert said...

Perhaps he's only "Mostly Dead" ... :-)

Tormund said...

Please remember how Varamyr Sixskins felt when Melisandre burned his eagle alive in the sky...

Wouldn't it be silly if Bowen Marsh and his gang decided to kill Jon in front of his friends, the Wildlings, and Wun Wun? Are you guys really sure it was Jon being stabbed with a knife?

As J. Lyon Layden already said, let's not talk too much about it... :)

Anonymous said...

I have a friend who was stabbed every time Michael Vaughan made a run at Old Trafford in 2005. 166 times. Not only did he survive, he is in fact George RR Martin!

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Jules said...

I have just finished the last book having come to this late and like many others was shocked by the apparent death of Jon just when he seemend to be getting his stuff together and becoming the hero we are all waiting for. Nice writing. BUT (and thanks for making my day brighter by those who share this view) he cant be dead ,and most likely is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna - I will not repeat what has been said already but here are a few extra points not mentioned or only mentioned briefly. (1) he burns - well said anonymous - so does Dany - hair and hands (2) note the understanding between Tyrion and Jon on the wall - I am sure they will meet again (3) someone said about Jon being dark and not blonde/silver therefore not Targaryen - but - gene colouring follows the maternal line in the books e.g Tommen follows Cerceis looks so Jon would follow Lyanna and be dark (4)the brothers do what they do because they must - but dont want to and so no one wants to give the death blow - he's not going to be running any marathons but he's coming back and as Mr Python might say "I'm not dead - I think I'll go for a walk".

Anonymous said...

why does jon snow keep referring to himself as he. Could mel be showing him something int the fire the whole time or did she glamor someone and he is watching I don't know but he is def not dead

Kleyniar said...

Sorry, an incomplete post may have been posted just before; something happened on my comp and I don't know if it sent. I didn't structure my post as I should have either... there is too much to be told.

So, I don't believe Snow is dead. If he dies, his conscience may transfer to Ghost. As Varamyr six skins mentions at some point: he is a powerfull Warg. He just doesn't realise it yet... so I don't know what somebody was thinking, earlier, when saying he's a weak warg, unable to transfer into his animal. We all have read that he dreams himself as Ghost, and that is the sign he sometimes is the wolf.

With all those powerful people who just like/love him around... is it unlikely the assassination attempt won't be twarted? I'd rather Melissandre didn't have to resurect him, but if it comes to that... I'm sure she can. The red priests seem to have remarquably similar aptitudes, despite some differences we may see or think we see on the visual effects of their powers.

Third point, regarding the four dagger thrusts... Jon Snow is wearing mail. Modern mail is usually shitty because people don't close the rings properly; the extremities are supposed to be overlapping. Some better ones, made for nobles or important people, were even riveted. Even if the chain armor was just classic-soldier stuff, the only hit likely to do some real dammage is the one at the throat, but we don't know exactly how deep and where that gash is. If it's the part under the chin -where some people tend to have more than one chin-, it is very unlikely it to kill him... and it's very unlikely Snow is wearing an armor without a gorget, which would mean it's the likely spot for the knife to hit. If the trachea is hit, death is the only likely outcome I know of; if not... powdered burdock roots will stop nearly any heavy bleeding in very little time. If you watch some world war movies, you can see on occasion a medic jumping with all due speed on a guy who just got a bullet through his throught, tear open a paper bag and spread a powder on the wound... and sometimes, the guy can be saved. Well, that is burdock powder or something very similar, and it's been used since prehistory. They are not exagerating the wound for effect; the powder just constrict so hard the blood vessels no blood can get through them. Had it on a wound once for testing; hurts like hell, stops the blood flow in a second and every person part of a medical staff is likely to have some on him in a war zone.

The armor and the powder ain't ways to say he's alive, not either to say he's dead. They are enough to confirm he has a logical chance at survival, even without Melisandre.

As to if Jon Snow is Azhor Ahai, why he is, why he can't be... GRR Martin has been known to plant informations to throw people off track. There are reasons to believe it's Jon Snow, others to believe it's Daenerys Targaryen. The other possibilities don't seem to be as relevant as those two. Too many elements are missing -like, for example, a parentage with Aerys and Rhaella Targaryen.

Anonymous said...

Dany came to her full when she died and Jon need to walk the same path to become a man. Fire brought danny back and the last thing Jon felt was cold. Fire and Ice

Anonymous said...

Not sure on Snow is alive or dead. Alive if he is half Stark half Targayen like many believe, me included.

But I think the grave digger is the Hound and also the Strong Rob that is now on the kings-guard.

Anonymous said...

Davos will find rickon an the north and the vale will rally for Sansa. I wouldn't be surprised to see a tormund prologue to twow

Anonymous said...

I agree with everything you've posted up here. I hope we find have a tormund prologue to twow. And I think Davos and rickon will play a big role

Anonymous said...

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: So why did you kill Jon Snow?
GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Oh, you think he’s dead, do you?

Anonymous said...

You're all missing a very important part in a storm of swords. Robb told his people before he died that Jon Snow is the next in line if anything were to happen to him. Jon Snow will not die, he will become the King in the North and destroy everyone who stands in his way. Im sure of it. People can survive four stabs. Especially when there is someone who has the potential to heal fatal wounds nearby, watching and has previously shown a strong interest in Jon. My other theory is that Jon somehow becomes a leader of the White walkers, who will eventually fight the dragons, hence the name a song of ice(jon Snow) and fire (Daenerys Targaryen) The song is a metaphor for a legendary battle.

Anonymous said...

Unlike you, I do like Martin's writing, despite his repititiousness, and occasional use of cheap plot tricks (like magically landing Danarys' long lost dragon in the middle of a fighting pit just when she needs to get the hell out of Mereen). But Martin does love his cliffhangers, and I believe that Jon Snow is the ONLY real narrator of the Wall; therefore he is bound to live.

Anonymous said...

How could Jaime be a Targaryen? He is a Twin - that would mean His sister would also have to be Targaryen....

Anonymous said...

No, I think Strong Rb is the Hound's brother - Gregor, reanimated by Cersei's psycho "healer" who experiments on live people!

Anonymous said...

I agree that Rob will remain alive in some fashion.

However, I dont understand how Jon could be the prophet that Melisander is looking for.
Her creed is that "the night is dark & full of terrors".
But he Stark family seems to be finding out the exact opposite. Arya was recently blinded, and said that she learned the dark was not to be feared. Similarly, Bran is currently living underground, with very little light, and finds great treasures in the dark. Jon has also never had a problem with the dark - he has come to rule the Wall, where it is often cloudy & dark.
I sense a future falling out between Mellisandre & the Starks, perhaps descending to a war over religious beliefs??

Anonymous said...

I don't really like GoT story wise, not in the way I like LotR and it's layers.

But I find it entertraining, well sometimes. There were some a party I could hardly digest, where characters do something very stupid, or discussions between them what have no meaning or just boring smalltalk.

Never the less, the way I see it, Martin is handling the Stark family very well. I think he should have exterminated the house (after nurturing and caring for every stark character for long enough), and leave one survivor at the end of last book.

-----

This idea is much like what I think about Blizzard, or what should they have done with the story of WoW. I know it's seem off topic, but if you are familiar with the story, you know that a lot of people got angry over the horde. They wanted a good and a bad side, and of course the good side should be alliance, especially humans.

A good change would be a three side war, with undead going rogue, Stormwind gets destroyed, undead capture Ironforge, but it becomes a three side battleground, Teldrassil and Azuremyst Isles, become huge alliance fortresses, orcs burn all of Ashenvale forest, but run out of resources.

I am a little bored with how orcs can couqer everything when they don't have armies, Thrall Mary Sue, etc.

But it would be more boring to see a traditional good humans vs bad orcs.

-----

Just imagine GoT with the Starks winning, or Robb conquering King's Landing, then going home, boring.

GoT is not exceptional literature, not really well written, I don't like the constant swearing and the treatment of women, how every sentence has the word whore in it, but it is unique in some way, the savagery, the senseless repetitive violence. Life is grim. At the moment right now while I am writing this, people got tortured, mutilated, raped or killed in every minute. If there are bads and goods in our World, then who win most of the time; the "goods"?

What does it teach us if we always see our favourites and heroes win? The most emotional response we have is when we lose people we care for or see them suffer. It teaches us that the world is imperfect and if we have to better it.

Anonymous said...

abit late to this. yeh Jon could be dead and that will be the end of it, but personally I think he's not or will be brought back to life. In the last book you have the whole first chapter on what happens to a warg if he's killed and goes into the body of an animal, now look at the name of Jon's direwolf 'Ghost', surely that's a big clue - as in it will soon contain the ghost of Jon Snow. If you put this together with the R+L=J theory it probably means he's going to come back and either be the prince that was promised or AA (if theres a difference) or just the future King of Westeros being a targarian.

I know its all hard to predict but I was thinking it would go something like this. Jon wargs into ghost while his body is being stabbed and escapes and probably finds out about his true parentage (if R+L is true) but, as it says in the book, when a person wargs into an animal before death they slowly become more animal like. therefore Jon is going to become more and more wolf the more time he is in Ghost. I also think that mel wont just bring him back to life (maybe because the barrier is separating his soul from his body or something) or will know about his royal blood and prepare to burn him as she's been trying to use royal blood for ages to 'awaken the dragon'. when she burns him I think Jon will walk out of the fire knowing his parentage and being AA 'reborn' which, ironically, will have 'awakened a dragon' (targarian).

yet the final twist is that Jon won't be Jon anymore. its said that Targarians (not sure of the spelling) can go crazy at the drop of a coin or something, and I think mad king whatshisface wasn't born mad but got madder as he got older (or something?). Now Jon had to sit back when Ned and Robb were killed, he lost the woman he loved, he was stabbed in the back and he's spent a load of time in his wolf and hes found out that his dad wasn't his dad so hes guna be nuts, and that's the twist- he becomes AA but hes no longer a predominantly good guy but rather abit mad and probably an a lot darker character.

abit long winded but that's what I think will happen anyway.

paul collins said...

Jons not dead he will be king of the Whitewalkers
and lead them into battle with his uncle/father Benjen whom now is Coldhands

paul collins said...

Agree, I think Jon will become a Whitewaller like uncle Benjen.